Was AD&D1 designed for game balance?

[Votan]

Ho
It is quite possible that with a couple of lucky die rolls, I wind up with an artifact. Now, since the GM should never make any changes, how does that work with "Gygaxian" balance?

I actually saw this happen, more than 20 years ago, playing 1E. It was the Ring of Gaxx on a random Orc. There was a round table discussion of "could an Orc be carrying an artifact by chance alone?".

It ended poorly as low level characters are not designed to handle protecting powerful magic items. But I did see it in play! [while it's possible it was a DM error, it really has been > 20 years, I am pretty sure if it was an error it was a subtle one]

 

[Raven Crowking]

Hussar,

Right now, if I understand correctly, you are immersing yourself in new games and systems. If you live close to anyone who is running an OS, Gygaxian game, I would recommend you try it for a few sessions to a few months. It is a different take on the game than what WotC, or even 2e TSR, provides, and is worth trying so that you can, at the very least, reject it from an informed perspective.

Clearly, my description isn't conveying it to you. If you ever decide to move to Toronto, I'll be happy to give you a chance at a firsthand experience. It might not be for you (it isn't for everyone), but the experience may well expand your viewpoint!

(I am currently eagerly awaiting getting the new Dr Who rpg, which is, I understand, narrative-heavy, and will certainly expand my viewpoint.)


RC

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

If you live close to anyone who is running an OS, Gygaxian game, I would recommend you try it for a few sessions to a few months. It is a different take on the game than what WotC, or even 2e TSR, provides, and is worth trying so that you can, at the very least, reject it from an informed perspective.

Clearly, my description isn't conveying it to you. If you ever decide to move to Toronto, I'll be happy to give you a chance at a firsthand experience. It might not be for you (it isn't for everyone), but the experience may well expand your viewpoint!

Would that really accomplish anything? Your accounts of what a 1E "Gygaxian" game don't match my accounts when I ran the game. They don't match the accounts of other DMs I played 1E AD&D with. And they don't match the accounts of local games run by those who played directly with EGG. My point isn't that the experience you would give Hussar is wrong, but that there is no "right way" and any single experience one gets to plat 1E will be a singular experience that has no far-reaching implication on "how the game was played."

 

[billd91]

How is random treasure generation "earning" anything? If I kill monster X, it should have treasure type Y (well maybe not Y specifically, but, Y as a variable... ah hell. ;p) That gives me a certain percentage chance of various types of rewards. A single lucky roll nets me a vorpal sword. Since the GM should never "perform any changes in situ to make things easier, harder, more rewarding, or less rewarding for the players", my rewards are entirely random.

It is quite possible that with a couple of lucky die rolls, I wind up with an artifact. Now, since the GM should never make any changes, how does that work with "Gygaxian" balance?

This is a significant misreading of the DMG. The DM is expected to place treasure appropriately. The treasure tables are a guideline for how much a creature of that type can be expected to amass (most likely in his lair) but the DM is not at all expected to take any random treasure result without eyeballing it first.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Would that really accomplish anything?

It would be fun!

And they don't match the accounts of local games run by those who played directly with EGG.

Linky link linkeroo?


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

This is a significant misreading of the DMG. The DM is expected to place treasure appropriately. The treasure tables are a guideline for how much a creature of that type can be expected to amass (most likely in his lair) but the DM is not at all expected to take any random treasure result without eyeballing it first.

Moreover, the Treasure Types assume the maximum number of creatures, according to the 1e DMG, with small numbers having correspondingly less treasure.


RC

 

[billd91]

Ok, so, basically, it's perfectly okay for the GM to fudge die rolls in prep, but not during play in order to maintain balance.

Or, more appropriately, it's up to the DM to design the challenges and rewards ahead of time and then let the players interact with them as they will and suffer the consequences (or reap the rewards) of their play as it unfolds on the table.

I guess if I roll a particular treasure for my wyvern, I'm supposed to have magically inherited the ability to know how much treasure is the right amount to make available.

The treasure will be distributed or used based on the creature's ability to do so. In the wyvern's case, a lot of loot will probably be in a lair somewhere hard to reach except by flying or making a dangerous climb. In fact, almost certainly all of it would be there. By contrast, an ogre mage would be wielding a good magic weapon that would come up in his treasure horde, the rest hidden away in a room that maybe he only can get to via gaseous form.

 

[Doug McCrae]

You should sharply limit the
amount of gear and treasure they [the PCs] can bring
to the village (as you will understand when
you read the adventure). If your group of
players has had exceptional luck, simply
engineer a minor encounter or two along the
way—light-fingered leprechauns, a thief or
two, or perhaps some brigands—to rid them
of a few of those cumbersome gems, coins,
and magical items.

- Temple of Elemental Evil, page 5

It's hard to say with certainty what 'Gygaxian' actually is. Gary said different things at different times. I recall reading elsewhere that he greatly regretted deliberately taking a powerful magic item away from a PC, and the reason he gave (for the regret) was that the player had 'earned it' fairly. Presumably at the time Gary regarded the item as unbalanced however and that it had been a mistake to put it in the game.

 

[Raven Crowking]

- Temple of Elemental Evil, page 5

It's hard to say with certainty what 'Gygaxian' actually is. Gary said different things at different times. I recall reading elsewhere that he greatly regretted deliberately taking a powerful magic item away from a PC, and the reason he gave (for the regret) was that the player had 'earned it' fairly. Presumably at the time Gary regarded the item as unbalanced however and that it had been a mistake to put it in the game.

Perhaps.

But the 1e DMG is pretty clear, as well, that there will be those willing to take from the PCs. This is part of the meta-level setup. What happens if the PCs defeat the brigands, and manage to loot the leprechaun's gold? In Gygaxian D&D, the DM balances at the meta level.

It should also be noted that, simply because Gary didn't always live up to his ideal, that it wasn't the ideal he strove toward. He certainly never proclaimed himself to be a perfect DM, or even a great or good one.


RC

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

It would be fun!

Very true.

Linky link linkeroo?

No, sorry. I live less than an hour from Lake Geneva and am friends with a former Dragon regular from the EGG days who played with Gary for some time. My points were all personal experience.

I wish I had taken Gary up on his invition to play in his game before his passing so I could have experienced "Gygaxian" play firsthand. I mistook his invitation at the time as a polite decline to the invitation we extended him to participate in my wife's special D&D birthday one-shot. I only realized after his death that he was very open to inviting people into his home to play and that my wife and I should have made the short trip to Lake Geneva.