Was AD&D1 designed for game balance?

[Garthanos]

Conversely, the pressure is now to slaughter everything in sight, and players who want to be Conan the thief rather than Conan the killer aren't catered to.

Evil vampire comes slaughtering villagers run away Conan he isnt carrying any gold.

Note the gold didnt become magically worthless.. he can still buy anybody who will follow the worthless toad that ran away to let the village die.

Caricatures arent they fun?

 

[Hairfoot]

Evil vampire comes slaughtering villagers run away Conan he isnt carrying any gold.

Note the gold didnt become magically worthless.. he can still buy anybody who will follow the worthless toad that ran away to let the village die.

Caricatures arent they fun?

Without punctuation and sentence structure it's hard to understand what that post is, but you seem to be saying that a Conan has no incentive to save villagers from a vampire unless it's carrying gold.

If that's what you mean, it's incorrect for several reasons:

1. Vampires are worth a hefty chunk of XP in any edition of D&D, so he's always rewarded for fighting it.

2. As Ariosto pointed out, a GP value can be put on saving the village or on Princess McGuffin if that's what the DM wants to do, so Conan is still rewarded.

3. If Conan is specifically the character you have in mind, he just may leave the villagers to the vampire. He's not suicidal.

I'm not sure what you believe is being caricatured.

Alternatively, if Conan has a choice between fighting the vamp or saving the villagers without conflict, and he's being run in a system that gives XP primarily for kills, what incentive does he have to be crafty and clever rather than violent?

 

[Garthanos]

Without punctuation and sentence structure it's hard to understand what that post is, but you seem to be saying that a Conan has no incentive to save villagers from a vampire unless it's carrying gold.

A specialized conan you made up who just wanted to steal and didnt value any of the results .... like a slaughter conan who wasnt killing for a reason.

That supposition is in conformance to those claiming XP for gold was really the driving element of experience point rewards in AD&D (it wasn't my experience I thought they were relatively balanced with gold contributing small amounts a DM with tight purse strings afraid of Monty Haul designations may have caused this feeling I think and he was also one who loved monsters with level draining).

2. As Ariosto pointed out, a GP value can be put on saving the village or on Princess McGuffin if that's what the DM wants to do

Why a GP value and not a XP value instead... what convoluted silliness requires gold in there?

 

[Garthanos]

I am also puzzled exactly what modern game is being postulated which only provides XP for killing things.

 

[FireLance]

At the risk of derailing the thread further, this is why I tend to prefer an "XP for overcoming challenges" model instead of an "XP for finding/spending gold" model or an "XP for killing" model on the occasions that I want to track XP in the first place.

"XP for finding/spending gold" generally does not gel with the way many people envision how a character grows in skill and power, and "XP for killing" tends to incentivise fighting as a solution to overcoming challenges as opposed to non-violent means of doing so.

"XP for overcoming challenges" includes "XP for killing", but also allows the PCs to earn XP for bypassing a combat encounter through stealth, trickery, persuasion, etc. as well as rewarding the PCs for overcoming structured and unstructured non-combat challenges.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

OTOH, if Bilbo had been an old-school D&D hero, he would have taken the Arkenstone, put on the Ring, and hightailed it back to the Shire, letting everyone else get slaughtered in the Battle of Five Armies. Bonus XP if he sells the corpses to the Necromancer, lets him slaughter the remnants, and then loots the rest of the Lonely Mountain. He also backstabs Lobelia and steals back his spoons.

My god, I SO want to read this book!

 

[Hairfoot]

A specialized conan you made up who just wanted to steal and didnt value any of the results .... like a slaughter conan who wasnt killing for a reason.

Well, the Conan who just wants to steal was made up by Robert E. Howard. I only used him as an example.

But he might not be a good example, since there now seems to be some confusion between character advancement mechanics in roleplaying games and the moral code of a pulp-fantasy book character.

That supposition is in conformance to those claiming XP for gold was really the driving element of experience point rewards in AD&D (it wasn't my experience...

I can't recall playing 1e with gold for XP either. I just gave a rationale for it upthread, and that's why it's in the discussion. I do like it, though.

Why a GP value and not a XP value instead... what convoluted silliness requires gold in there?

None at all. An XP value works equally well, but if I were running on a GP=XP basis, I'd be tempted to think of things in gold just to keep it uniform.

I am also puzzled exactly what modern game is being postulated which only provides XP for killing things.

Has anyone said "only"? I've talked about "primarily", but I can't think of any games that are strictly XP for kills.

The "advancement through combat" model picks up around 2e, IMO, becomes the standard in 3e, and is enshrined in 4E.

Just to be sure we're talking about the same thing, would you agree that characters in 3E and 4E receive most of their XP for combat encounters?

 

[Garthanos]

I can't recall playing 1e with gold for XP either. I just gave a rationale for it upthread, and that's why it's in the discussion. I do like it, though.

1 gp gained gave you 1 xp ... find it on the street get an xp.

What firelance describes If I understand correctly
is only slightly different than the 4e rules RAW.
4e skill challenges built in provide xp no DM hand waving required
4e traps provide xp no DM handwaving required.
4e non-combat encounters provide xp no DM handwaving required.
The idea that 4e enshrines killing to get XP is incredibly weird to me.

My players just saved a village from being magically radiated it wasnt laid out identically as a skill challenge or a trap in part because I like many tend towards informality in that regard (hand waving allowed but not required ;-)). A little more like a multi stage trap with some ingenuity to figure out it was even happening. So boom experience points for this "encounter."

 

[Garthanos]

Just to be sure we're talking about the same thing, would you agree that characters in 3E and 4E receive most of their XP for combat encounters?

Cant say anything about 3e...
No I dont agree at all with regards to 4e my players do not gain most of there XP for combat encounters ... and by the rules every encounter combat or other wise with significant risk of failure provides xp.

The DMG defines puzzles really broadly too and they are 1 source of experience points
DMG1 : "Other puzzles are a matter of the players figuring something out in the context of the adventure. "

The nature of what the characters chose to do probably determines where most of their xp come from.

 

[Garthanos]

Well, the Conan who just wants to steal was made up by Robert E. Howard.

You left out the ending... "and didnt value the results? ".
Just like slaughtering "for no reason"

I think that doesn't conform to the literary Conan.