Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

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Elves and dwarves made many weapons, true, but AFAIK, the assertion that they made many weapons of such extremely high quality as you describe- analogous to D&D magic weapons- is, I think, unsupported by the text of the novels.

It is not a question of imbecility, but rather of the scarcity of material, skill and time.

Look at real-world swordsmithing: in any given culture in which the making of swords is a major concern, there will be many sword makers. But among those, only a certain small fraction will have the requisite level of skill and available time to fashion a truly well-made weapon. It is like the difference between the skills needed to make a handcrafted Rolls Royce Drophead Phantom and a Toyota Corolla. And not every maker is going to be that skilled.

Mithril is not going to be as available as simple steel. I have personally held in my hands actual gemstone material that was so rare that the stone in the palm of my hand represented 30% of the world's supply. And in the days of Napoleon, aluminum was rarer than gold- the knowledge & technology of how to recognize, find & refine it was limited to just a handful of people. We don't know precisely what "mithril" is, because it is fantasy unobtanium. But like the gemstones and aluminum, Middle Earth material scarcity and the limits of societal mining & smelting tech will put some kind of cap on mithril's availability as a resource. JRRT's Dwarves & Elves weren't going to Gnome Depot to buy tons of the stuff every other weekend.

And even if you have the skill and material in sufficient time, it probably isn't as if crafting a fine weapon of mithril is a quick job. If JRRT imagined the process is analogous to real-world production, working mithril probably takes more time- and possibly specialized equipment- to work as compared to lesser weapons-grade metals. The very qualities that make it a desirable metal might also make it devilishly hard to work with. That will increase the time it takes to make any given piece, possibly by orders of magnitude. Again, the real world illuminates this point: a medieval swordsmith could produce many dozens of weapons of standard steels in the same time it took to craft a single blade of high carbon steel such as you'd find in a master crafted katana or Damascus sword.

If you want a titanium alloy steel, for instance, you have to be able to work with titanium, which requires exactly that because of its extremely high melting point. Ditto platinum as compared to other precious metals: any jeweler who uses it has specialized tools to work with it.

This is even more true if the material is unusually hazardous to work with. I've had custom guitars made, and when choosing which wood would form the body of the first one, I narrowed it down to a few choices, one of which was cocobolo. However, I quickly abandoned it: cocobolo requires special tools and safety precautions to work because its oils can ruin certain tools and increase the toxicity of its dust. As a result, not many woodworkers use it, despite its beauty. Those that do invest in tools that they only use on cocobolo, and on having better than average workshop ventilation or even full-on respirators.

So I reiterate: just because Dwarves and Elves had Mithril weapons, it does not necessarily follow that they had lots of them.

Real world sword smithing has little bearing on this. Dwarves as a race are makers and highly skilled in crafting, the crafting of weapons in particular. Even their normal weapons could not be rivaled except by the very few, very best of the Noldo. Those same very best that created Sting, Orcrist and Glamdring. All powerful magic weapons. Given thousands of years worth of mining and weapon craft that would dwarf (pun intended :P) the best sword smiths Earth has ever had, the dwarves of Khazad Dum would have had plenty of weapons to mash the Balrog with. There's no way an 8+8 hit die monster did them in.
 

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The important thing thus far missing from the discussion is that by maiming themselves (in a sense) in taking on material forms, they weren't getting weaker. They were trading one power for another they felt more useful. They were giving up spiritual authority for greater material authority. Fallen Maiar, in giving up detachment from the physical world, were doing so in order to gain greater command over the physical world. They were seduced as it were by the dark side - quicker, easier, more seductive. Their new physical forms gave them greater power in the physical world, at the cost - perhaps not originally realized - of becoming transient like everything else in the physical world.

Melian and Tom Bombadil disagree with you. They are not bound and have far more power than any of the fallen Maia. The fallen Maia due to their evil simply become bound to their form and unable to change it and die forever when the form dies. Those who are not bound to it don't have that happen. There isn't increased physicality and power when you are bound to a form. It's a prison, not a boon.

Indeed, not only could he not provide himself with a new body, but Manwe had to make a personal appeal to Illuvatar to return Gandalf to service, as he was truly and utterly dead and beyond the Valar's ability to do anything about it.

Unable to re-create a body is not the same as being dead. He was confined to Valinor and had to be given the ability to return to Middle Earth.

This is a point of debate since the text doesn't make it clear. My personal feeling is that the dragon and troll species where originally created by some powerful Maiar, one akin in stature to Sauron, extending their spiritual form into that of a whole species. In sense, the 'dragons' were the 'ring' of some Maiar (possibly named Glaurung) that had given up its individuality and identity to become something of a force of nature. This is a lesser version of what Morgoth himself was striving to obtain by enfusing himself into the whole of Middle Earth, turning the very matter of the universe and all of the universe into his 'ring of power'.

I think that Maia could twist elves into orcs, but I doubt one or even several would have the power to create dragons. I'm fairly certain that Morgoth himself would have been required to make something that powerful.
 

See, I don't think that would have worked. I think they would have been only puppets - even Aule and Melkor couldn't create independent life, and Glaurung and Smaug have personalities. They don't seem to be 'bits of a hivemind'.

He didn't create them. He bred them. He had the power to twist normal snakes over time, enlarging them, giving them wings, and eventually the ability to breathe fire.
 

Real world sword smithing has little bearing on this.

Because it is a fantasy novel? That is nonsense. You might as well assert that Middle Earth steel is like one of our marshmallows and their fire would not burn us because real world information we have on metal and fire has little bearing on how it works there.

No. All fiction has its basis in reality and branches out from there. How much so depends on the unreality of the fiction in question. The less familiar the basic rules of the fiction's setting, the less accessible it will be. But JRRT's world works much as ours does- steel is hard; fire is hot.

Dwarves as a race are makers and highly skilled in crafting, the crafting of weapons in particular. Even their normal weapons could not be rivaled except by the very few, very best of the Noldo. Those same very best that created Sting, Orcrist and Glamdring. All powerful magic weapons.

I'm not saying otherwise. I'm asserting that there is no evidence in the novels that weapons of that power approach anything like the ubiquity you're claiming.

In fact, the very rarity of such weapons even within the Company of the Ring would argue against there being anything approaching a large number of such weapons in the world. Given the dire situation and the stature of the individuals in it, the Company would have probably had their pick of gear available. They'd be the denizens of Middle Earth most likely to be kitted out like a D&D party. Not just as a matter of pride for those behind them, but also to ensure the mission's success.

If there really were huge numbers of magical weapons stockpiled somewhere, nobody's contingency plans would go awry by being short the gear they might request.

Given thousands of years worth of mining and weapon craft that would dwarf (pun intended :P) the best sword smiths Earth has ever had, the dwarves of Khazad Dum would have had plenty of weapons to mash the Balrog with.

Plenty of weapons? Sure. Plenty of MAGIC weapons? There's no evidence for that.

Dwarves live a long time. But not all dwarves are smiths. And not all Dwarven smiths are master smiths- even among themselves, there will be differing levels of competence. The ones capable of forging magic weapons might be rare indeed.

And how long does it take to forge a magical item in Middle Earth anyway? AFAIK, JRRT never says.

Hell- the process of creating magic weapons may be so long and involved that only the master craftsmen of the Dwarves and Elves live long enough to complete even a few.
 

That theory is not backed up by the books. You're taking the tendency for fallen Maia and other evil supernatural entities to be tied to their form and thereby become limited in power by that form and trying to apply it to the Valar and unfallen Maia who do not have that problem.

I didn't say anything about them being tied to their bodies. They invested their power in certain things, and if those things were destroyed, it used up their power. Yavana could only make those trees once. The maiar that made Dragon bodies invested all of themselves in that body.

Also, a distinction between fallen Maiar and not fallen Maiar is not supported by the books. Same with Valar (Melkor). Illuvatar didn't do anything to them.
 


There is a complication here. Fire isn't part of Gandalf's natural jurisdiction as a vassal of Varda (or possibly Manwe). He is essential an Angel of wisdom and hope, learning and words, light and truth, and has some jurisdiction over those things. He also appears to have personal knowledge of magical lore and words of power, related to study of the things within his authority, and so to be able to cast 'spells' using those words and his natural authority. Essentially, he knows stuff about the universe and being who he is, has a right to command it.

I think you may have misunderstood me. I didn't meant that Gandalf had jurisdiction over fire, or that his use of fire came from his authority over it. Those two sentences (his power came from his jurisdiction and he had affinity to fire) were separated by a dot/period. What i meant by his power to do some things came from his "task" or "assignment" or jurisdiction is i.e. when he "decommissioned" Saruman. Or as you mentioned his domain overs some element of reality.

On the other hand:
So he might have learned things about fire, but we know from the text that the primary source of his authority over fire is his possession of Narya - the Ring of Power concerned with the element of fire. Narya vastly increases Gandalf's ability with fire, giving him much greater command over fire itself than he'd have without it. In D&D terms, assuming Narya is something like a Ring of Elemental Command, we can't be certain whether anything Gandalf does with fire can't be explained as a power of Narya and not something in one of Gandalf's spell slots as a wizard. We can be reasonably sure that nothing he does with fire is equivalent to Gandalf's racial abilities, since fire wouldn't be part of his 'portfolio'.
Cirdan himself said: "Take this ring, Master… for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you."
The way i always interpret it, Narya never gave Gandalf any (literal) fire abilities, just like Nenya never gave Galadriel water summoning or Wilya Elrond any air related activities. The way i see it, Narya gave Gandalf exactly what was advertised, it helped him shrug the weariness of time and the burdens of his task on what hand, and inspire those who would stand up to the Shadow.
And thus the complication. It's possible that any powerful manifestation of fire that Gandalf does is simply Gandalf invoking Narya's ability to cast Fire Blast or Flamestrike or whatever.
Thus, no. I think any affinity of Gandalf towards casting fire was either because he personally favored it for some reason, or IMO much more likely, because it was most appropriate at the time. Like fire and divine light being the obvious best choice against the Nazgul, but apparently not against the Balrog, and not against the Nazgul the second time on the banks of Bruinen, when water was more appropriate. So, what level of spell was flame blast?

Not really. While there are parts of the text that are very hard to fit into D&D, I don't think this is one. Gandalf attempting to shut the door in Moria is the origin of the spell 'Hold Portal'. The Balrog simply cast 'dispel magic' or something of the sort, and beat Gandalf's caster level check. The rest is in D&D terms merely color, and an example of good RP.
Perhaps. If one could flavor dispel magic as the door self destructed because both of them were warding and or piercing it, then yes, i agree.

Again, not really. Gandalf occasionally uses Searing Light. That's probably a racial ability owing to his stature as a Ainur, rather than one of his Wizard abilities. It's easily explained in most editions of D&D with a race or template, only slightly customized or even depending on how you do it, not at all. I'm not clear on what the first appearance of the Searing Light spell is, but in my 1e suggested stat block, it would be an easy to fit into the powers of an Agathion just by putting it on his clerical spell list.
This i agree with. It would be either racial ability or the cleric aspect of Gandalf and clearly more in line with his "jurisdiction" powers and not manipulation of matter. Like his cleansing powers in example.

On the issue of scarcity of magical weapons...... i agree with you and others here, they were probably not all that common, even in the first age and even less so in the third. Dwarfs were master smiths yes, and some of their work would certainly make even Noldo craft pale in comparison. But were they magical? As in possessing supernatural abilities above the basic property the item was made for? I tend to interpret this mastery (even the Noldorin mastery) as a form of technology too. So yes, Noldo and Naugrim blades would have +1 or +2 to hit, maybe even to damage, but most of those superb/masterwork items would not be magical per se. Not in the way that Tolkien usually attributes magic to items, i.e. they either have some form of spirit of their own, or have inherited some of their crafter's spirit and creative urge. And such weapons would indeed be rare. For like the Valar, the Maiar, Eldar and Naugrim could do some things only once or few times in their whole lives at best. And these items would be of extraordinary properties. The Noldorin princes in the first age would probably have such weapons. And being crafted in Valinor (some even under guidance of Melkor and some explicitly to fight him and his servants, they might have had more "spirit" or "magic" then your typical magical weapon even in Tolkien terms. Then there were weapons that acquired "souls" or were "upgraded" during their times, like Narsil/Anduril and Anglachel, both of which may have rudimentary "spirits" or "spirit bonds" from the start. Heck, Anglachel was even self aware. But again such weapons were so rare, and so precious that they were considered gifts for or of kings! The very greatest of smiths, be he a dwarf or an elf would make no more then few such items in his entire lives. And many of those weapons were lost with their owners in the first age alone. So, yeah..... i don't see many people possessing such items, even in the rich kingdom of Moria.

But let us digress a bit. Let's assume that Gandalf did not slay the Balrog because he had a magical +2 elven balde that dealt divine damage. I mean, it helped yes, but what if it wasn't the blade that did the killing. What if a very hardy warrior wielded it.... say, Eorl the Young, could he slay the Balrog with it? Gandalf said, "this is a foe beyond any of you" , not "this is a foe beyond any of your weapons" of which at least Aragorn had one, i'd guess. What if Gandalf was able to slay the Balrog because like himself, it was a being of spirit. A spirit of fire no less, not trapped in a mortal shape like Saruman. A shape it had, but a much more premordial and in line whit its purpose. So, what i'm saying is, maybe it takes a spirit of similar or greater nature to slay such a spirit. True, there were Noldorim heroes in the first age that did the deed, but these were high elves, half of their spirits still in Valinor, and themselves being at least as much "fire" and "magic" and "spirit" as they were corporeal. After all, "mighty were the princes of the Noldor", especially when enraged and the fire of Valinor was still burning strong in them.

As for the shapes, again i agree. While the Maiar could take shapes just like the Valar, and wear them (and cast them off) as cloths, the Wizards were a special case. Their shapes were truly and for all intents and purposes mortal and human. They were not just some aspect of them, they could change and discard at will. Would killing their bodies kill the spirit confined to them? No, it would send them back to Valinor. But it would certainly "kill" their mandate in Middle Earth. Hence the special intervention needed to send Gandalf back. Or Glorfindel for that matter. And it is my belief that they were sent (and bound) in such bodies for a reason. They were to oppose Sauron, but never in a direct contest of might, but rather of will and counsel. This is why the choice of who is to be sent did not fall on the mightiest among them, but rather the most "skilled" or "wise" ones. Remember that Gandalf was actually afraid of being sent back, because he did not consider him self strong enough to oppose Sauron? Manwe's response was that, that is exactly why he sends him, because he will not fall into temptation to fight Sauron openly, or engage in an "arms race" with him, but rather stay true to his task and provide help to the free peoples through labors of guidance and inspiration. And he did.
 

A second post, in order to avoid overloading the previous one.
On spirits.
There were more spirits in Middle Earth then just the Balrogs and the Maiar. Or at least there were more manifestations of them. Even with the creation of Arda, probably some spirits were "permanently" bound to some shapes. I think the Eagles and the Ents are such spirits. Some of them did or might have "fallen" over time, accepting their bestial nature (The old willow) and thus given rise to the monsters of later times. Some have indeed been corrupted be the Shadow. Some may have been interbreeds of such fallen spirits and beasts and animals. Like the werewolves and the vampires. Or the spiders for that matter.
 

Because it is a fantasy novel? That is nonsense. You might as well assert that Middle Earth steel is like one of our marshmallows and their fire would not burn us because real world information we have on metal and fire has little bearing on how it works there.

No. All fiction has its basis in reality and branches out from there. How much so depends on the unreality of the fiction in question. The less familiar the basic rules of the fiction's setting, the less accessible it will be. But JRRT's world works much as ours does- steel is hard; fire is hot.

No, not because it's a novel. It's because the novel establishes that dwarves are skilled beyond any other race, including humans. Last I checked, Earth swordsmiths were human. Do you have knowledge and proof that they weren't human? I'd really like to see it if you do.

I'm not saying otherwise. I'm asserting that there is no evidence in the novels that weapons of that power approach anything like the ubiquity you're claiming.

The dwarves were capable of created magic items of such power that just wearing one a mask could make you immune to dragon fire. Their weapons were only able to be rivaled by the greatest of Noldo smiths who made magic weapons of great power. There is evidence that they can make weapons of power, yes. You're just ignoring it.

In fact, the very rarity of such weapons even within the Company of the Ring would argue against there being anything approaching a large number of such weapons in the world. Given the dire situation and the stature of the individuals in it, the Company would have probably had their pick of gear available. They'd be the denizens of Middle Earth most likely to be kitted out like a D&D party. Not just as a matter of pride for those behind them, but also to ensure the mission's success.

Rarity among humans, hobits and other non-elves and dwarves? Sure. We are never shown whether dwarves and elves fail to have magic weapons as a race, and we are told in the Silmarillion that they do have such weapons in abundance.

Dwarves live a long time. But not all dwarves are smiths. And not all Dwarven smiths are master smiths- even among themselves, there will be differing levels of competence. The ones capable of forging magic weapons might be rare indeed.
The Silmarillion implies otherwise.

And how long does it take to forge a magical item in Middle Earth anyway? AFAIK, JRRT never says.

And yet the Silmarillion is full of them.
 

I didn't say anything about them being tied to their bodies. They invested their power in certain things, and if those things were destroyed, it used up their power. Yavana could only make those trees once. The maiar that made Dragon bodies invested all of themselves in that body.

Also, a distinction between fallen Maiar and not fallen Maiar is not supported by the books. Same with Valar (Melkor). Illuvatar didn't do anything to them.

There is nothing that says that her being unable to make those trees once is due to her lack of power. My sense from reading is that the time, so soon after creation, is what allowed her to make them and is why she couldn't make them again. It took great power to take what light was left and create the sun and the moon with it. More than would be required to make two trees I would think.
 

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