Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

 

[Maxperson]

A second post, in order to avoid overloading the previous one.
On spirits.
There were more spirits in Middle Earth then just the Balrogs and the Maiar. Or at least there were more manifestations of them. Even with the creation of Arda, probably some spirits were "permanently" bound to some shapes. I think the Eagles and the Ents are such spirits. Some of them did or might have "fallen" over time, accepting their bestial nature (The old willow) and thus given rise to the monsters of later times. Some have indeed been corrupted be the Shadow. Some may have been interbreeds of such fallen spirits and beasts and animals. Like the werewolves and the vampires. Or the spiders for that matter.

There's no reason to think that the eagles and ents were anything other than creations of from the beginning of time. What spirits Tolkien showed us were like the Balrogs, Bombadil, and Goldberry.

 

[Faenor]

A second post, in order to avoid overloading the previous one.
On spirits.
There were more spirits in Middle Earth then just the Balrogs and the Maiar. Or at least there were more manifestations of them. Even with the creation of Arda, probably some spirits were "permanently" bound to some shapes. I think the Eagles and the Ents are such spirits. Some of them did or might have "fallen" over time, accepting their bestial nature (The old willow) and thus given rise to the monsters of later times. Some have indeed been corrupted be the Shadow. Some may have been interbreeds of such fallen spirits and beasts and animals. Like the werewolves and the vampires. Or the spiders for that matter.

Balrogs were (are?) Maiar. A group of Maiar that were referred to as 'spirits of fire'. Fire was in there nature, and that predisposed many of them to follow Melkor and become Balrogs.

The Ents and Eagles are not explained, but based on their entirely biological nature, it's pretty clear that they are not Maiar. Dragons are mostly biological, but their fire breath and great size required more than just upscaling lizards. And, being that only illuvatar created life, and the only 'spirits' he created were the Maiar (and Valar), there's no indication that the ents and Eagles were not creatures of illuvatar's created world. Those creatures, which were non-magical, could be 'brought up' in the good sense or twisted in the evil. Like orcs, wargs, or Shelob on the evil side and Huor, shadowfax, and even the Noldor, on the good side, by exposure to the Valar or Maiar. But they needed to start with that biological life from illuvatar.

Admittedly, that was more clear with the eagles than with the ents. The only being that didn't fit this logic was Tom Bombadil, but JRRT made it very clear by his powers that he's above and outside all of these rules. The ents, though neutral and ancient, didn't have any kind of super or magic powers, so there's no reason to assume they don't follow JRRT's general rules like bombadil. The explanation for the Ents that fits best is that they were plants brought up by Yavanna when she walked the earth in the twilight time before the light of the trees.

There was also no case in JRRTs writing that the Maiar could or did reproduce biologically with creatures of Arda. Perhaps the only exception was spiders being referred to as children of ungoliant. However, it's not explicit that were not children in a more figurative sense, and, also it's not explicitly stated that ungoliant was a Maiar. The best explanation for ungoliant is that she was a left over from before JRRT worked out his rules that only illuvatar was capable of creating life.

 

[Faenor]

Thinking now. Maybe there were half Maiar elves. Still, elves were magical creatures and didn't follow the same life and death rules as humans and other animals.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

The Ents and Eagles are not explained, but based on their entirely biological nature, it's pretty clear that they are not Maiar.

Not Maiar, yes, but they are actually explained. Ch. 2 of the Silmarillion, "Of Aule and Yavanna".

Yavanna petitions Iluvatar through Manwe to create defenders of the trees, and he agrees.

"When the Children [elves] awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar [animals] and olvar [plants], and some will dwell therein"

But these spirits don't seem to be of Ainur (Valar/Maiar) type since the Ents & Eagles are embodied beings that reproduce. They'd be more like human or elven souls.

There was also no case in JRRTs writing that the Maiar could or did reproduce biologically with creatures of Arda.

There is one clear case - Luthien.

Some may have been interbreeds of such fallen spirits and beasts and animals. Like the werewolves and the vampires.

I believe it's stated that Morgoth or Sauron sent evil spirits into wolves, creating the werewolves. (Which in Middle-Earth don't seem to be shapechangers, just huge evil intelligent wolves.)

He didn't create them. He bred them. He had the power to twist normal snakes over time, enlarging them, giving them wings, and eventually the ability to breathe fire.

That's my take, yes. Though he might well have done the same 'send in evil spirits' thing - but I agree the original stock were probably large snakes like pythons. The earliest dragons were snakelike and wingless. The winged dragons only appear at the very end of the First Age.

Thinking now. Maybe there were half Maiar elves.

Only Luthien.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

No, not because it's a novel. It's because the novel establishes that dwarves are skilled beyond any other race, including humans.

Unless they are actually using magic to aid the process, the Dwarves are still limited by the known physics of forgecraft. They can't make the ores heat faster, hotter or separate into their various elements more rapidly. The metal will quench at a set rate. It will take a certain amount of time to repeatedly hammer and fold the blade in order to get the optimal distribution of carbon (especially Carbon nanotubes), tungsten, vanadium and other trace elements within the steel- plus whatever it is that makes the alloy called Mithril.

That isn't about skill, that's physics. Physics doesn't care if you're man or dwarf. Skill doesn't create physics-defying shortcuts.

The dwarves were capable of created magic items of such power that just wearing one a mask could make you immune to dragon fire. Their weapons were only able to be rivaled by the greatest of Noldo smiths who made magic weapons of great power. There is evidence that they can make weapons of power, yes. You're just ignoring it.

Reread what I wrote, Maxperson. You are either missing my point or deliberately misrepresenting it.

To be 100% clear: I. Am. Not. Asserting. Dwarves. Can't. Make. Powerful. Magic. Items. Not at all.

What I am saying is that there is zero evidence in the novels that they made a buttload of them.

Rarity among humans, hobits and other non-elves and dwarves? Sure. We are never shown whether dwarves and elves fail to have magic weapons as a race, and we are told in the Silmarillion that they do have such weapons in abundance.

You still don't get it. The overall plot of LotR is Middle Earth's facing of an Extinction Level Event.

This is their big meteor coming to hit the planet, and everyone has to work together to make the big super nuclear missile (or missiles) to knock the thing off of its collision trajectory. If the nukes fail, everyone dies, so there is no point in holding anything back. So nobody does. The contingencies in such stories are never "we'll fire our own withheld and secretly better missiles after yours fail because we are so awesome we don't need your help". It's always having bunkers where they hope someone will survive the impact.

Just like the humans, hobbits & everyone else in Middle Earth, the elves and dwarves are screwed if the Company of the Ring fails. If Sauron wins, there won't be a bunker deep enough. There is no point in not supplying elven mail to any of the 9 it will fit. There is no reason for them not to give/loan powerful magic weapons to those who will be facing Sauron...if they have it to give.

Yet not even Gimli and Legolas have anything resembling a significant magic weapon at the quest's inception.

This is a strong implication against the ubiquity of magic such as you are asserting.

The Silmarillion implies otherwise.

Support this claim with quotes, please.

And yet the Silmarillion is full of them.

Support this claim with quotes, please.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I'm late to the party, but I'd say, if he's a 5th level Magic User, his race is a totally broken homebrew.

 

[Hriston]

Where does the idea that Gandalf is a vassal of Manwe and/or Varda come from? Is it just that he was their choice of emissary among the Istari? Based on the Simarillion, I've always thought of Gandalf as one of the people of the Vala Lorien, as it is said he dwelt in the gardens of Lorien before he was sent to Middle-earth. This seems to be in keeping with his function as a kindler of hope.

 

[Marandahir]

Gandalf was a multiclass character. In 4e, the Invoker was developed to be a Divine Wizard to emulate Gandalf, but I always saw him in 4e terms as an Invoker/Runepriest (sword) Hybrid Class character. In 5e terms, he's probably a Wizard/Paladin or a Wizard/Cleric (of some domain that grants martial weapon proficiency, like Tempest or War).

You also have to remember that he was well known for hoarding his spells per day because he felt it wasn't right to go all out with his power. We saw him unveil his power in specific circumstances.

Also, just because he uses low-level spells doesn't mean he doesn't cast them in high-level spell-slots. 5th Edition handles his sort of character in a much better way, to that effect.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Unless they are actually using magic to aid the process, the Dwarves are still limited by the known physics of forgecraft. They can't make the ores heat faster, hotter or separate into their various elements more rapidly. The metal will quench at a set rate. It will take a certain amount of time to repeatedly hammer and fold the blade in order to get the optimal distribution of carbon (especially Carbon nanotubes), tungsten, vanadium and other trace elements within the steel- plus whatever it is that makes the alloy called Mithril.

That isn't about skill, that's physics. Physics doesn't care if you're man or dwarf. Skill doesn't create physics-defying shortcuts.

What I think you're missing is that "Art" or "Craft" in Middle-Earth is, or can be, inherently magical. Even the mundane items made by skilled Dwarven and Elven craftsmen (and those of Westernesse of old) will have properties that can't be explained by physics and chemistry.

Just like the humans, hobbits & everyone else in Middle Earth, the elves and dwarves are screwed if the Company of the Ring fails. If Sauron wins, there won't be a bunker deep enough. There is no point in not supplying elven mail to any of the 9 it will fit. There is no reason for them not to give/loan powerful magic weapons to those who will be facing Sauron...if they have it to give.

I don't think you can apply that kind of logic to these stories. Remember that the 13 Dwarves set off to kill a dragon with no weapons at all. We are dealing with a world with different conceptions of objects and ownership and fate and magic.

There was an old cartoon of a movie theatre where a sci-fi space battle is on the screen, and this nutty professor sort is standing up and yelling "Stop the movie! Stop the movie! Explosions don't go BOOM in a vacuum!"

Don't be that guy.

 

[Marandahir]

Where does the idea that Gandalf is a vassal of Manwe and/or Varda come from? Is it just that he was their choice of emissary among the Istari? Based on the Simarillion, I've always thought of Gandalf as one of the people of the Vala Lorien, as it is said he dwelt in the gardens of Lorien before he was sent to Middle-earth. This seems to be in keeping with his function as a kindler of hope.

See "The Unfinished Tales," chapter, "The Istari."

These are stories that belong with the Silmarillion and the LotR Appendices but didn't make it into either. They're still "canon," if you can consider any of it canon given Tolkien's constant revisions (and his son's revisions that made it into the Silmarillion – if you ask Christopher Tolkien today, he'll tell you that several aspects of the Silmarillion were fudged in order to reconcile elements he didn't have a true answer to at that point in time). Now we have more answers because of more recent scholarship, though some questions, such as if Balrogs have wings, what Tom Bombadil is, what is the nature of Orc morality, what is the true love-story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and how did Glorfindel come back, these questions are still very much in doubt and likely will never be answered "truly" given that Tolkien was undecided on them by the time of his death.