Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

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Who knows? Tolkien changed his mind on this, and it's not entirely clear what was 'final'.

Ahh, it's good to have someone else that speaks the language.

When Tolkien decided Morgoth shouldn't have the ability to create life, the Orcs became corrupted elves and the Balrogs became fallen Maiar.

And all the early text where it mentioned balrogs were rewritten as 'trolls', which in D&D terms are better thought of as ogres than the leathery long nosed green skinned regenerating things of D&D.

At one point in the 50s, Tolkien decided on '3 or at most 7' Balrogs total, but this was never incorporated into any of the 'Silmarillion' texts, so was it his final decision? Who knows?

It is implied Feanor and the other 'advance' parties of the Noldor host are attacked by more than 3 Balrogs in the most stable copies of the text. How many is 'many' is a matter of debate. When I read the text I imagined 1 or 2 dozen, in part because those sorts of numbers for me better explain Morgoth having drawn off a large portion of the Ainur host to his cause. If we don't imagine several dozen Balrogs, we start having problems with assigning roles for the sort of numbers of Ainur vassals Morgoth presumably has, not only his own, but those he drew from Aule and other sources as well.

But yeah, once we get into Tolkien's later years, Tolkien begins attacking the underpinnings of almost all of his early assumptions (and reducing the quality of his story). I think Orson Scott Card is a parallel case. Both authors I think become emotionally burdened by the seriousness with which their fans begin taking their fiction, and being deeply religious persons both begin to question whether their text is teaching the right lessons. Fortunately, Tolkien left his masterpiece alone: we could be in a situation like OSC where he knocks holes in his own stories with his own stories. For that matter, I'm beginning to feel that Star Wars is in a similar position, with later writings about the beloved setting undermining the originals again and again.

Sauron is less powerful without the ring, but he has a physical form at the time of LOTR in the books (though not in the movies).

I'm aware of that, but nonetheless, that form is a weakened, injured version of his former self, which he can only fully restore if he recovers the ring. Some of his former selves have probably died unrecoverably. He can probably never again assume the form of the Lord of Gifts that he tricked Celebrimbor with. His form of the Dark Lord of the Tower or of the Necromancer, while physical is still not I think equivalent to high epic level. Epic perhaps, but not high epic.

I'd argue that Galadriel is higher level than Glorfindel. She and Feanor are "the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor".

It's an interesting question as to whether Galadriel is a higher level than Gandalf. Certainly they are at the least peers. I would tend to go with the interpretation that Galadriel is higher level than Gandalf, but roughly equivalent once you account for Gandalf's level adjustments from race or template. Whether she is higher level than Glorfindel is an even more difficult question, because it depends on how you think of 'greatest'. In D&D terms, greatest is usually understood to be the ability to win a fight.

But if that is your standard, that would make Eonwe, the greatest warrior of Aman, higher level than most of the Valar. Tolkien tends to define 'greatest' in terms of authority. It's heavily implied that most of Sauron's power comes from his misused but still inherent authority. For example, the biggest problem in overthrowing Sauron using the ring would be that, given his inherent authority, and given that he is the rightful owner of the ring, if he asked you to give him his ring you'd be pretty much compelled to do so unless you had great authority yourself or had trained your will to be a weapon and made yourself cruel and hard.

I would tend to in D&D terms put Glorfindel higher level than Galadriel. He is a guy who afterall can slay Balors on his own as an act of prowess, and by similar means drive off the Nine. But the magic of Galadriel suggests she has more authority than Glorfindel has, and thus can more easily make the universe bend to her will especially at a distance. Exactly what she is capable of doing though isn't entirely clear. Like Elrond, she seems to be a potent artificer, and appears to have considerable magic, but we don't get to see a lot of it. In 5e terms, much of what she and Elrond can do seems to be best described as Lair powers. Gandalf as I've described him is level adjusted about 11th level, but limited to 6th level caster ability. By that standard, Elrond and Galadriel are both about 11th level as well, probably multi-classed. Glorfindel is probably about 15th level. However, this just shows the limitations of trying to apply game concepts to literature that wasn't created to conform to game concepts, and something that expressly appalled Tolkien when people tried to do so.
 
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My recollection is that Gandalf has generally been statted as a bard rather than a wizard due to his preeminent knowledge of lore, notably weak evocation spells and signature gift of inspiring others.
 

Gandalf = 20th-level in a single class.

Surely, in the actual Middle-earth 5e game, Gandalf will have a single class. The Middle-earth 5e RPG will be based on the archetypes which exist within that world -- not based on the existing class archetypes of the D&D Multiverse. Yes, if Gandalf were transported into the D&D Multiverse, he might be re-statted rules-wise into a 7th-level Wizard/Fighter/Bard/Paladin or whatever.

But within the stand-alone Middle-earth milieu, Gandalf - and whatever he does - is the archetypal wizard and magician.

And as far as his Stature (class level), Gandalf the White, after the fall of Sauron, has the highest Stature of any persona in Middle-earth (along with Tom Bombadil), and so would be 20th-level at the moment of leaving for the Other Shore. He characterized himself as the counterpart to Sauron.

As for which single class he'd have 20 levels in? Well, though the Istari are a unique kind of being, they function in Middle-earth as "Magicians." I realize that JRRT explicitly distinguished the "Wizards" from "magicians" and "sorcerers", but rules-wise, role-wise, and class-wise, they function as the archetypal Magician in Middle-earth. The Wizards are essentially Magicians who happen to also be Angels, so that their Magic/Spells are enhanced by their preternatural wisdom and insight. But still basically following the same "profession" as mannish Magicians. I mean the Three Magi of Biblical legend are surely one inspiration for the Five Wizards.

And so, being that Gandalf the White was 20th-level, but still didn't often wield flashy spells, then the Magician profession in Arda is very distinct from the magic-using classes and schools of the D&D Multiverse, and progresses at a more subtle rate, in regard to "spell slots." The Magician might also have other class abilities which are not spells. Wielding a sword ought to not be a hindrance.

As for Gandalf's "race", AFAIK, the name "Istari" and "Maia" can't be used by licensees, since they don't actually appear in the LotR or The Hobbit. Decipher used a circumlocution, something like (AFAIR) "The Kindred From Beyond the Sea." I suggest simply: "Angel" or (Greek) "Angelos":

"But G. is not, of course, a human being (Man or Hobbit). There are naturally no precise modern terms to say what he was. I wd. venture to say that he was an incarnate 'angel'– strictly an 'angelos'."

-JRRT Letter #156

I'd say Gandalf, at the end of the LotR, is an Angelos 20th-level Magician.
 
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Didn't we have this conversation fairly recently?

I missed it the last time, or I'd probably be bored with it now.

My own take, then and now, is that Gandalf should be somewhere in the top end of the level scale (probably 17th at the start of LotR, at least in 5e terms; I would go for 13th in 3e or 21st in 4e), but the existing classes actually do a fairly poor job of reflecting that - either the classes make him way too powerful or he's left at a level where he has no chance against the Balrog.

I think the big problem is that the Balor wasn't faithfully translated from the 1e stats. If the 3e Balor had been an 8 or 10HD outsider, there would not be this problem. Instead they took the 8HD balor and made a 20HD version the baseline model. They took the 13HD pit fiend and made it 20HD. They took the (effectively) 17HD ancient red dragon of largest size and doubled it up to 34HD or more. But there was IMO little need for that save to support numbers inflation. It's easier to scale things up when you need to do so than it is to keep perspective.

If we were playing at high paragon or low epic level, we could just double or triple the HD of the baseline balor to produce a 'Gothmog' and be done. Without the assumption that the Balor is a CR 20 creature, we no longer have the problem that the classes make Gandalf too powerful once he is of a level to challenge the Balrog.
 

Something very important for sales:

I prefer that ME 5E is rules-wise 100% compatible with D&D - even to the extent that characters could theoretically multiclass with regular D&D classes.

I strongly suggest NOT making the core mechanics "slightly different" like Wheel of Time d20 (or Star Wars d20) vis-a-vis D&D3e. No Vitality Points and other snags.

However, re-languaging the terms to match the aesthetic of Middle-earth would be fine and good.

Class > Profession ("Thorin and Company to Burglar Bilbo greeting! For your hospitality our sincerest thanks, and for your offer of professional assistance our grateful acceptance."
"All the same, I should like it all plain and clear," said he obstinately, putting on his business manner (usually reserved for people who tried to borrow money off him), and doing his best to appear wise and prudent and professional and live up to Gandalf's recommendation."
—The Hobbit

Level > Stature ("In his [Sauron's] actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it [the Ring] from him." —Letter 246)

Strength ok, or Might
Dexterity > Nimbleness
Constitution > Hardihood
Intelligence > Wits
Wisdom > Perception
Charisma > Bearing

(Doing a word-search of the LotR and Hobbit texts found that these were the most common synonyms for the D&D attributes.)

I have some other notes and suggestions here (though not specifically about 5E): https://sites.google.com/site/endorenya/ultimate-hobbit-rpg
 
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I hate to be a grumpy old cuss* but Gandalf was not a 5th level Magic-user, nor a high-level Cleric, nor a Deva sent to the Prime Material Plane. He was a character in a fictional novel. Any and every attempt to map him to game rules is going to be fatally flawed. That way lies madness.

*And I lied. I love being a grumpy old cuss.
 

As a side note, it's entertaining to see the competition to be Most Knowledgeable Tolkien Scholar erupt in yet another forum.
 

Again, depends on what stats you use for a Balrog.

The Balrog of Moria was sufficient to *wipe out Moria*. The thing, in essence, took out the population of a city. Stats should be implied from that, no? And can a 8 or 10 HD monster take out an entire city?
 

And all the early text where it mentioned balrogs were rewritten as 'trolls',

I believe at least some of that was done by Christopher Tolkien when he created the published Silmarillion (from material spanning about 50 years of evolution in Tolkien's mind - for example the Fall of Gondolin was never re-written after the Book of Lost Tales in 1918 or so).

Trolls were originally from the Hobbit [which was not originally planned as part of the same world as the Silmarillion material] and brought into the same world with LOTR. But I don't think JRRT himself went back and put the trolls into the Silm. material. [Which is probably why there is no Silm. origin story for them unlike the Ents & Eagles, Dragons etc.]

It is implied Feanor and the other 'advance' parties of the Noldor host are attacked by more than 3 Balrogs in the most stable copies of the text.

Oh - definitely. I don't personally think the '3 or at most 7' bit is definitive, but I figured I had to bring it up.

How many is 'many' is a matter of debate. When I read the text I imagined 1 or 2 dozen, in part because those sorts of numbers for me better explain Morgoth having drawn off a large portion of the Ainur host to his cause.

That sounds about right - them existing in thousands doesn't work if they are all as powerful as the Moria Balrog, but I think to avoid changes in the First Age stories you need at least a dozen at the beginning, especially since some get killed off in the War of the Powers before Elves even enter the picture.

But yeah, once we get into Tolkien's later years, Tolkien begins attacking the underpinnings of almost all of his early assumptions

Yeah, the "Myths Transformed" stuff published in Morgoth's Ring.

Some of his former selves have probably died unrecoverably. He can probably never again assume the form of the Lord of Gifts that he tricked Celebrimbor with.

He can't, but I don't think his different forms are separate entities to the degree that they 'die' as such. In the Silmarillion he quickly shapeshifts between different forms.

At the Fall of Numenor he lost the ability to assume an attractive form, hiding his evil nature -- even with the Ring.

His form of the Dark Lord of the Tower or of the Necromancer, while physical is still not I think equivalent to high epic level. Epic perhaps, but not high epic.

Hmm, yeah, I think I'd agree with that. Sauron might be (in 5E terms) maybe CR 22 without the Ring but CR 30 with it.

In the OD&D scale used by the original article where 9th-10th is 'name level' I'd say maybe 15th level without, 20th with.
 


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