Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

 

[Sadras]

Like which was the best Star Trek, original, TNG, or DS9?

Hmmm, did you leave out Voyager and Enterprise on purpose?

 

[mflayermonk]

Rating magic spells from the books seems silly when you consider Cugel (a rogue) casts both (9th level spells) Freedom and Imprisonment on the same day while reading from a spellbook.

 

[Celebrim]

The Balrog of Moria was sufficient to *wipe out Moria*. The thing, in essence, took out the population of a city. Stats should be implied from that, no? And can a 8 or 10 HD monster take out an entire city?

Absolutely it can.

If you assume that magic items are pretty rare...
That most NPCs are 1st level characters...

Then sure, a genius level creature with a fear gaze attack that most characters are going to need like a 17+ to resist, and the ability to create an aura of fire that does like 3d6 damage to everything near you, and a high AC, and a 70% magic resistance that basically means it can always shrug off spells from any caster 4th level or lower, and strong resistances and immunities can pretty easily run riot through a city. Oh yeah, and the ability to employ a die no save Symbol of Death that takes out 120 hp worth of foes. Yeah, it can definitely destroy a city.

If you assume Durin VI was about a 9th level character with his ancestor's magic axe, then maybe he can give the Balrog a tough fight. But the implication is that Durin gets ambushed and killed early on in the contest, and without their champion (and with Durin I's axe, the 'Axe of the Dwarvish Lords', now missing) his people are eventually routed.

Now if you assume that magic items are common, and that your average dwarf is a 6th level fighter, then no, of course not. But those assumptions are D&Disms that reflect how D&D is commonly played in practice, with high level characters that require high level challenges, and they don't reference or attempt primarily to reference any particular story but deal with the powers of PCs as they actually can appear in the game.

However, you can find stories that do reference 1e AD&D's explicitly. For example, Elizabeth Moon's "Deed of Paksenarrion" very explicitly follows the career of a 0th level fighter in a mercenary company straight out of the 1e DMG, up through the levels, through the adventures in T1: Village of Hommlet, until she becomes a high level Paladin. However this story wasn't based on AD&D as it was actually played, but on AD&D and its world as how it was described by Gygax.

Conversely, Raymond Feist's Riftwar Saga or Hickman and Weis's Chronicles of the Dragonlance are based on AD&D as it actually was played in practice, and as such the characters in it are very much clearly high level. Raistlin and Pug are much more powerful in absolute terms in their stories than Gandalf is shown to be in his story. But I think The Lord of the Rings is much closer in its idea of what mighty means or in its power scale to Deed of Paksinarion, than it is to Chronicles of the Dragonlance. In a world were most everyone is 1HD, a 9th level Paladin is an epic hero and you'll hardly find anyone more powerful. In the Forgotten Realms, it's the relatively common captain of the town watch of a pretty small rural village, and anyone who is anyone is like 18th level or higher.

 

[Elderbrain]

I second what SouthpawSoldier said... as a Maiar, Gandalf's spell-like powers are probably innate rather than being the result of taking levels in a class. Just because the common people of Middle-Earth call the Istari "wizards" doesn't necessarily make that identification correct. (Gandalf doesn't seem to have a spell-book, for one thing... though his staff certainly seems to be a magic item.) Likewise with Sauron. And Gandalf's effective power level can't be gauged just based on what spells he cast in the books; does a 20th-level D&D Wizard bother to use his best spells against low-level opponents? That said, there's no reason there couldn't be mortal spell-casters in Middle-Earth.

I'm interested to see what they do with elves, orcs, etc... do they use the ones in the PH, or offer up new Middle-Earth variants?

Whatever they do, I hope 1) that it's a nice thick book, with stats for major characters and monsters (i.e. Balrog), and 2) it's fully compatible with normal 5e material. I should be able to take stuff from the LOTR book and plop it down in my homebrew campaign (or a pre-made campaign setting), and visa-versa IF I so choose.

 

[Zardnaar]

Depends. City of what (mechanically speaking)? And which system/edition matters greatly as well.

This. In 1E Lolth has 66 hit points, a Balor averaged 44 and level 10 was in effect epic levels.

LotR makes perfect sense when most of the heroes were level 1-4 with maybe Aragorn being level 8 or 10 and the majority of the population is 1HD.

2E gave the demographics of a generic D&D world (High Level Campaign book). Level 18 was 1 in a million. To put it into perspective.

The city of Rome in the 1st century would have had 1 level 18 character. Italia overall would have had 4-5. The whole empire maybe 30 such characters.
In 1492 Castlle would have had 5 such characters. Aragon would have had 1, France 15-30 (depending on the date)
1700 England would have had 5 such characters, Scotland 1.
1776 the USA could have had 4.
Ottoman Empire at its height could have had 20-30 such characters.

Most of them would have been thieves as well going by the xp tables. That was also the upper limit of such characters doesn't mean they will actually exist.

 

[BookBarbarian]

These threads always make me think of DM of the Rings. If you haven't seen it check it out here http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612
Gandalf is clearly a high powered, kill stealing DMPC.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Absolutely it can.

If you assume that magic items are pretty rare...
That most NPCs are 1st level characters...

Then sure, a genius level creature with a fear gaze attack that most characters are going to need like a 17+ to resist, and the ability to create an aura of fire that does like 3d6 damage to everything near you, and a high AC, and a 70% magic resistance that basically means it can always shrug off spells from any caster 4th level or lower, and strong resistances and immunities can pretty easily run riot through a city. Oh yeah, and the ability to employ a die no save Symbol of Death that takes out 120 hp worth of foes. Yeah, it can definitely destroy a city.

I dunno... the original article is old enough that OD&D assumptions probably apply.

The OD&D "Monsters and Treasure" book tells us that NPC/monster Dwarves are 1 HD, but 1 in 40 is a fighter of level 1d6 (outside the lair) or level 3-6 (in the lair).

Moria should count as a lair. I don't know what the population of Moria was, but it was a city, so even in the rather less populated world of Third Age Middle Earth it should be in the thousands. But even 2,000 dwarves means 50 fighters of 3rd-6th level... I think they could take down one 8+ HD monster, though with some losses.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't see how that necessarily follows. The text implies that the fight was very lengthy, and that Fingolfin was winning by using a 'fight defensively' strategy to avoid Morgoth's blows and that the fight went on for perhaps hours. Morgoth starts to get the better of it, smashing Fingolfin with Grond three times but is unable to finish him. Finally, the fight is decided when Fingolfin fumbles and fails a reflex save, falling backwards into one of the many pits torn into the earth by Grond's falling. Seeing that his foe is about finished, Morgoth delivers the killing attack with his foot, snapping Fingolfin's neck. However, this draws an attack of opportunity which Fingolfin uses to deliver one final critical hit to Morgoth's heel, permanently maiming Morgoth (who by this point has given up is spirit form in favor of a stronger permanent physical body the better to manipulate the physical world).

That doesn't follow, either. Nothing says Fingolfin was fighting defensively. Elves are just hard to hit in Middle Earth due to their amazing agility. He wounds Morgoth 7 times before he grew weary and Morgoth smashed Fingolfin with his shield, not Grond. There were also no pits. The earth was pitted. It had holes in it, probably from Morgoth missing with Gond. Fingolfin then fails to fall into a pit that isn't there and instead trips due to a hole in the ground and falls backwards.

I believe you have this reversed. In D&D, the original flavor text for the Type 6 demon suggested only a few existed. In Tolkien lore, there appear to have been dozens of Balors at one point - part of the ainur vassal host of Morgoth, probably snared from the fire loving host of Aule. The balrog of moria is presumably of the common variety, as opposed to a balor lord like Gothmog. The balrogs of Tolkien are expressly less potent than the balor of D&D in any of their recent incarnations, and while fantastically more powerful than the party, there is no reason to suppose that the balrog of Moria is a particularly exceptional one of its kind other than having survived the sacking of Thangorodrim, presumably by hiding deep within the earth.

You assume a lot. There are no common Balrogs. They are all of varying power levels based on the power level of the fallen Maia. Gothmog was simply the most powerful of them. Nothing says that the Balrog of Moria wasn't nearly that powerful.

 

[Maxperson]

Again, Gygax's Balrog only has 8+8 HD. If we are going by the strict D&D interpretation, Gandalf only needs to have a Staff of the Magi to run the scene - Gandalf does a retributive strike, they both die, the rest is color. Hence, presumably Gandalf need only be a 5th level wizard.

Oh! I can play this game. Gandalf needs only have a nuclear bomb and set if off, they both die and he can be 0 level. There's nothing that says the staff is anything more than a focus for Gandalf's spells.

No, not quite. I suggest he's more powerful than a 5th level wizard, but still a 5th level wizard (I prefer 6th, giving him multiple 3rd level spell slots, which I believe can be sustained from the text). I believe that it is somewhat wrong to say that Gandalf is only a 5th level wizard, as he is clearly not of mere mortal race. But, in terms of his arcane abilities, I concur with the original essay that the evidence of the text suggests he can cast no more than 3rd level spells in D&D terms. Thus, as the original essayist points out, he's better treated as a 5th level wizard (or in my opinion a 6th level wizard) than anything of higher level. A 13th level wizard for example, has abilities that vastly exceed anything Gandalf appears capable of, and such a high level would not explain why Gandalf has some of the difficulties he has or why he tries to resolve them how he does.

The stats I suggest for Gandalf means that he is a 6th level wizard, but that he has some other abilities as well. Those other abilities however, while broad, are not significantly beyond what we'd expect of a 6th level character. For example, if we assume Gandalf is a powerful Agathion with the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells, we have a character with just 7HD with the powers of roughly a 7th level psionic fighter, 7th level cleric, and 6th level wizard combined. That means Gandalf is more than just a 5th level wizard, but does not imply that in any fashion Gandalf is a high level wizard or that he could use higher level spells but is just choosing not to.

That doesn't follow either. Most of the time Gandalf acts like he's merely a 1st level wizard. When Gandalf occasionally does 'real magic', it's something akin to fireball or lightning bolt. I agree that the text is easiest to explain if Gandalf is more powerful than a human 6th level wizard, but I don't agree that makes Gandalf more than about a 6th level wizard. His other abilities are best explained as either racial abilities, or of the powers of the minor artifact (Narya) that he carries, which I assume are roughly equivalent to a Ring of Elemental Command (Fire) with a couple of bonus abilities and drawbacks. This would mean that Gandalf's highest level spell is a 'Flamestrike', which is again, very much in line with everything we either see Gandalf doing or Gandalf is implied to be able to do off camera.

He can't be 6th level. He was instructed in Aman not to use his full power, so if you are correct and he used his full power, he's a fallen Maia who rebelled against Aman. Since we know that isn't the case, he's has to be more powerful than the magic that he shows.

Sauron Lord of Werewolves was originally Morgoth's chief lieutenant. He was a peer to and senior in rank to Gothmog lord of Balrogs and to Ancalagon the Black, a flame breathing dragon of the largest possible size. Sauron's ring of power that he later forged does greatly increase his CR, but he's already without it more dangerous presumably than a 10HD red dragon. In 1e terms, he's roughly comparable to a Duke of Hell or a Demon Lord. Morgoth's power is presumably comparable to a Lord of Hell or a Demon Prince (Asmodeus, Grazzt, Demogorgon).

Ancalagon wasn't a 10 hit die red dragon. He was unique and more powerful than Smaug, who might be a 10 hit die red dragon. Ancalagon broke mountains when he fell. No 10 hit die red dragon is going to do that.

The Valar did not create the universe. Only Illuvatar was capable of creating the universe. The Valar were made responsible for shaping the universe from the raw material Illuvatar provided, which the text makes clear was an act of labor for them. They simply could not will it into being and presumably spent thousands of years on the task. This is within the power of a Solar.

Eru only played conductor. The Ainur brought the universe into being and shaped it via their song to the plan of Eru. The Valar doing the brunt of that work. No Solar could do that.

Nor could the Valar for crying out loud! Again, the creation of the dwarves specifically required the intervention of Illuvatar. Aule only shaped them out of stone and was playing with them like dolls using something akin to Animate Object, when Illuvatar caught him. Aule acted very much like a guilty child and confessed that he'd been vain gloriously pretending to be able to create life, something that was well beyond his station and ability. Read the text for crying out loud.

They were alive and breathed, even if puppets. They just didn't have minds and will. No Solar could do even what you describe, let alone what actually happened.

 

[Maxperson]

Absolutely it can.

If you assume that magic items are pretty rare...
That most NPCs are 1st level characters...

Then sure, a genius level creature with a fear gaze attack that most characters are going to need like a 17+ to resist, and the ability to create an aura of fire that does like 3d6 damage to everything near you, and a high AC, and a 70% magic resistance that basically means it can always shrug off spells from any caster 4th level or lower, and strong resistances and immunities can pretty easily run riot through a city. Oh yeah, and the ability to employ a die no save Symbol of Death that takes out 120 hp worth of foes. Yeah, it can definitely destroy a city.

If you assume Durin VI was about a 9th level character with his ancestor's magic axe, then maybe he can give the Balrog a tough fight. But the implication is that Durin gets ambushed and killed early on in the contest, and without their champion (and with Durin I's axe, the 'Axe of the Dwarvish Lords', now missing) his people are eventually routed.

Now if you assume that magic items are common, and that your average dwarf is a 6th level fighter, then no, of course not. But those assumptions are D&Disms that reflect how D&D is commonly played in practice, with high level characters that require high level challenges, and they don't reference or attempt primarily to reference any particular story but deal with the powers of PCs as they actually can appear in the game.

However, you can find stories that do reference 1e AD&D's explicitly. For example, Elizabeth Moon's "Deed of Paksenarrion" very explicitly follows the career of a 0th level fighter in a mercenary company straight out of the 1e DMG, up through the levels, through the adventures in T1: Village of Hommlet, until she becomes a high level Paladin. However this story wasn't based on AD&D as it was actually played, but on AD&D and its world as how it was described by Gygax.

Conversely, Raymond Feist's Riftwar Saga or Hickman and Weis's Chronicles of the Dragonlance are based on AD&D as it actually was played in practice, and as such the characters in it are very much clearly high level. Raistlin and Pug are much more powerful in absolute terms in their stories than Gandalf is shown to be in his story. But I think The Lord of the Rings is much closer in its idea of what mighty means or in its power scale to Deed of Paksinarion, than it is to Chronicles of the Dragonlance. In a world were most everyone is 1HD, a 9th level Paladin is an epic hero and you'll hardly find anyone more powerful. In the Forgotten Realms, it's the relatively common captain of the town watch of a pretty small rural village, and anyone who is anyone is like 18th level or higher.

Middle Earth dwarves were very strong and hardy. They made weapons and armor better than the elves, and elven weapons were mighty. There's no way at all that an 8+8 hit die monster can take a city of dwarves.