Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

 

[Zardnaar]

Middle Earth dwarves were very strong and hardy. They made weapons and armor better than the elves, and elven weapons were mighty. There's no way at all that an 8+8 hit die monster can take a city of dwarves.

It can if +2 or 3 weapons are mega rare and no one can hurt it.

 

[Maxperson]

It can if +2 or 3 weapons are mega rare and no one can hurt it.

They weren't rare at all. Dwarves in Middle Earth made magic weapons. Elves made powerful magic weapons and the dwarven weapons and were better. Khazad Dum not only had those sorts of weapons, it had mithril, which means mithril weapons and armor. Mithril is better in Middle Earth than it is in D&D. Khazad Dum had sufficient magic weapons, armor and strong dwarves to use it to waste any 10 8+8 1e Balors.

The Balrog of Moria was something much, MUCH more powerful than a 1e Balor.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Has anyone pointed out that in a White Dwarf magazine (I can't remember the number...it's at my parents place right now)...they had Gandalf as a cleric! I guess it was all the healing, light spells, and talking to animals and whatnot. I think they also placed him at 5th level, iirc. I'll have to check and get back to you guys unless someone has that WD on hand.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[DQDesign]

Hi! What about a full-custom 5E Istari class?
I posted one here http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?365690-New-Class-Istari some months ago.
Sorry for necroposting and self-promotion... but maybe someone can find it useful.

 

[delericho]

I thought it was a Balrog and a veritable army of goblins that took down Moria?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

They weren't rare at all. Dwarves in Middle Earth made magic weapons. Elves made powerful magic weapons and the dwarven weapons and were better. Khazad Dum not only had those sorts of weapons, it had mithril, which means mithril weapons and armor. Mithril is better in Middle Earth than it is in D&D.

The fact that Dwarves and Elves made magic weapons says nothing about their rarity.

The fact that someone has Mithril does not mean they possessed it in abundance.

 

[Faenor]

How I read the powers of the Maiar and Valar is that each had a finite power reservoir. Their essence or Angel energy. They could choose to invest that power according to their interests. Balrogs as 'spirits of fire' were like elementals. The dragons created a body that also had a breath weapon. That body was incredibly powerful, except that it was biological and therefore could be killed with a well placed arrow. Ungoliant invested in a spider form that could absorb energy, which was powerful except that it could be starved and made.it hungry for more constantly. Yavana (was it yavana with the trees?) Invested her power in green growing things, but then sank it all into the trees which could then be destroyed. Sauron's interests were power over people, so he invested his power in a biological form with a high charisma, control over lots of minions, and then he sank lots of his power into the rings, but mostly his power went into the one ring, which was still his power as long as he had the ring. Then, when his body was destroyed in Numenor's destruction, he didn't have enough power to create a new charismatic body. For Saruman, same thing but with a lower level of Angel power. Saruman created his own biological body, then he sank his power into minions and mind control power. Gandalf invested his power in his body, but then because he worked through the goodness of men, elves, and hobbits, and played on the greed of dwarves, didn't need mind control powers. So he could invest his energy into what d&d would call evocation powers, plus healing powers, and generally just minor effects here and there. Then because he had Narya and a magic sword, he could beat the Balrog, which had only fire powers.

 

[Uchawi]

D&D is not a good fit for middle earth, unless you revamp all the classes and magic. You would need to take the champion fighter as the lead and dumb down everything else to match. Even a class like a warlock (as a simple caster) is too complex for middle earth. Even if you re-fluff it. I believe that is a hint to why every D&D movie is a disaster, i.e. too much magic and no way to tone it down and at the same time be true to the game.

 

[Maxperson]

The fact that Dwarves and Elves made magic weapons says nothing about their rarity.

The fact that someone has Mithril does not mean they possessed it in abundance.

The elves made many such weapons. The dwarves also made weapons of unsurpassed quality and sold them to the armies of the elves. There's no reason to think the dwarves fell prey to a disease that reduced them to imbeciles and they suddenly stopped making weapons like that in quantity.

 

[Maxperson]

How I read the powers of the Maiar and Valar is that each had a finite power reservoir. Their essence or Angel energy. They could choose to invest that power according to their interests. Balrogs as 'spirits of fire' were like elementals. The dragons created a body that also had a breath weapon. That body was incredibly powerful, except that it was biological and therefore could be killed with a well placed arrow. Ungoliant invested in a spider form that could absorb energy, which was powerful except that it could be starved and made.it hungry for more constantly. Yavana (was it yavana with the trees?) Invested her power in green growing things, but then sank it all into the trees which could then be destroyed. Sauron's interests were power over people, so he invested his power in a biological form with a high charisma, control over lots of minions, and then he sank lots of his power into the rings, but mostly his power went into the one ring, which was still his power as long as he had the ring. Then, when his body was destroyed in Numenor's destruction, he didn't have enough power to create a new charismatic body. For Saruman, same thing but with a lower level of Angel power. Saruman created his own biological body, then he sank his power into minions and mind control power. Gandalf invested his power in his body, but then because he worked through the goodness of men, elves, and hobbits, and played on the greed of dwarves, didn't need mind control powers. So he could invest his energy into what d&d would call evocation powers, plus healing powers, and generally just minor effects here and there. Then because he had Narya and a magic sword, he could beat the Balrog, which had only fire powers.

That theory is not backed up by the books. You're taking the tendency for fallen Maia and other evil supernatural entities to be tied to their form and thereby become limited in power by that form and trying to apply it to the Valar and unfallen Maia who do not have that problem.