Water, water everywhere, Nor any drop to drink

[Lord Twig]

This brings us back to the issue that 5e is not 4e.

I threw out some sub-classes and got the response: "But it doesn't do support actions every round."

But the problem is that no class does support every round. A Cleric casts Bless then has to concentrate on it. After that you start throwing damage down range. At least, if you want to be useful you do.

I'm willing to bet that the number of players that are willing to play a pure support class is pretty small. And of those the number that insists on a non-magical support class is even smaller. Most would be perfectly happy to play magical Clerics and Bards.

Combine that with the, admittedly also small, group that dislikes the role-playing that is forced on their own characters by the Warlord* and you should be able to see why it has been delegated to a secondary role, as a sub-class option.

* The Warlord inspires, commands or convinces you to fight harder than you normally would because, obviously, you weren't really trying your hardest.**

** "But that is already in the game!" You say.***

Yes, it is. And it doesn't make any more sense when the Bard does it. Personally I re-flavor their Bardic Inspiration as a magical effect. Why does the Bard's inspiring words help you dodge dragon fire, or resist poison, or hit an orc with a sword... 5 minutes after he inspired me to do better? Why can he only speak inspiring words to people between one and five times a day? No reason! Just because! It makes more sense if it is actually a magical resource that gets drained throughout the day.

Also, just because there are a few things in the game already that don't make sense, doesn't mean we need a whole class dedicated to using nonsensical reasons to accomplish super-human (as in, more than a normal human can do) effects without magic.

*** Yes, I understand nobody actually said this. I was anticipating the argument and answering it.

 

[jodyjohnson]

This brings us back to the issue that 5e is not 4e.

I threw out some sub-classes and got the response: "But it doesn't do support actions every round."

I'm not seeing that response. The response seemed to be more, that's too much Fighter. If I wanted to play a fighter better than the PDK I think the Marshall would do.

The complaint about the subclass fixes is that any Fighter subclass is going to have too much fighter. The BM fighter already does the Fightery warlord otherwise known as the Bravura in-your-face Warlord. I don't see much contending that. The complaint sums up as 'that's not the only kind of Warlord'.

 

[jodyjohnson]

You can skin some of those to function thematically. The others you can ask your DM to swap for something more practical for your concept. "Problem" solved.

Hmmm... take one level of Fighter, swap out Second Wind for Give Second Wind (add that they spend a HD), keep the Fighting Style for Protection.
A second level of Fighter gets Action Surge, but I swap that for Mastermind's ranged Help with a bonus action (which only works on attacks). At 17th I get Action Surge. Third is Battlemaster archetype with Commander's Strike, Maneuvering Attack, and Rally. Swap Student of War for proficiency in the Herbalism Kit. At 4th, I choose Healer or Inspiring Leader. I take the other at 6th. This means I skip bumping Strength which makes me less attack and more support. Instead of Indomitable granting me a second try to save, I grant someone a second try but it costs my Reaction (useable on Death Saves).

Only needed to replace/modify 3 Fighter features and 1 Battle Master feature.

I suppose I could just write that up and call it an Alt Fighter, like say the Marshall.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Hmmm... take one level of Fighter, swap out Second Wind for Give Second Wind (add that they spend a HD), keep the Fighting Style for Protection.
A second level of Fighter gets Action Surge, but I swap that for Mastermind's ranged Help with a bonus action (which only works on attacks). At 17th I get Action Surge. Third is Battlemaster archetype with Commander's Strike, Maneuvering Attack, and Rally. Swap Student of War for proficiency in the Herbalism Kit. At 4th, I choose Healer or Inspiring Leader. I take the other at 6th. This means I skip bumping Strength which makes me less attack and more support. Instead of Indomitable granting me a second try to save, I grant someone a second try but it costs my Reaction (useable on Death Saves).

Only needed to replace/modify 3 Fighter features and 1 Battle Master feature.

I suppose I could just write that up and call it an Alt Fighter, like say the Marshall.

Sounds good to me. I like it (as a rough draft with the usual "requires practical playtest to be certain"). If you can manage to get a consensus, from those here avidly in search of a "full-fledged warlord", I'll be even more impressed.

FYI, another issue you may encounter once you nail it all down, can result from the fluff. How is this marshal imparting these gifts to the other PCs? Is he inspirational to his allies because they look up to and respect him? Instructing them how better to perform their jobs? Commanding them? You will find a lot of pushback with these concepts (not sure how much of these older threads you've perused--but it was quite the hot topic de jour for a while there).

 

[jodyjohnson]

The Warlord, Warlock, Paladin, Monk, etc. (Religious Cleric, 1e Barbarian) all run into some preference issues.

Bottom line issues regarding what HP and healing represent, whether the game should simulate a world or emulate a genre, and attitudes toward the metagame all have a strong bearing on the Warlord's acceptance which I don't expect to answer.

Those larger questions speak to style of play and the Warlord isn't a good fit for all or even most styles of play.

 

[Bawylie]

Sounds good to me. I like it (as a rough draft with the usual "requires practical playtest to be certain"). If you can manage to get a consensus, from those here avidly in search of a "full-fledged warlord", I'll be even more impressed.

FYI, another issue you may encounter once you nail it all down, can result from the fluff. How is this marshal imparting these gifts to the other PCs? Is he inspirational to his allies because they look up to and respect him? Instructing them how better to perform their jobs? Commanding them? You will find a lot of pushback with these concepts (not sure how much of these older threads you've perused--but it was quite the hot topic de jour for a while there).

That pushback comes from folks who wouldn't want a warlord anyway.

 

[pemerton]

The Warlord inspires, commands or convinces you to fight harder than you normally would because, obviously, you weren't really trying your hardest.

I just posted a reply to another thread in this forum about this very thing.

In the real world, many people don't always try their hardest, even when they are trying to! That's why there are coaches. That's why people have personal bests that they can't always emulate. That's why people can be driven to do things for people they love that they would otherwise not have thought they could bring themselves to do.

The idea that everyone is entirely self-sufficient within him-/herself, and that feelings and relationships have no effect upon performance, is very atomistic. I think it's contrary to a lot of actual, lived human experience. And I also think it's contrary to a lot of the literary material that underlies the tropes and themes of fantasy RPGing. (The soldiers defending Gondor were trying hard. They were helped - tried harder than they otherwise would - because Gandalf went among them, heartening them and encouraging them. It's never occurred to me that the only explanation for this is that Gandalf is casting a spell on them! It seems to me that Tolkien is pointing to a perfectly commonplace aspect of human life.)

 

[pemerton]

swap out Second Wind for Give Second Wind (add that they spend a HD)

Spending a HD makes it very weak healing.

Second wind, plus other healing abilities in the game, actually increase the amount of hit points that can be recovered per rest period. Whereas allowing the spending of a HD doesn't do that - it just manipulates the timing of hp recovery.

In 4e, healing was almost entirely about manipulating the timing of hp recovery, because nearly all serious healing required surge expenditure. But this is one mechanical respect in which 5e differs from 4e and is closer to earlier versions of the game.

There are frequent claims that, in 5e, in-combat hp recovery is not a big thing. (I know those claims aren't universal, but they formed the premise eg of [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s recent "rotten egg" thread.) To the extent that that is so, then manipulating the timing of hp recovery becomes even less of a big deal.

 

[mellored]

I threw out some sub-classes and got the response: "But it doesn't do support actions every round."

I liked your features.
However, the issue with your sub-class is balance.

Cleric 5 has..
+1d4 to-hit, and (2d8) * .5 = 4.5 damage

Your Fighter 5 has...
+1d4 to-hit, and (4d6+6) * .5 = 10 damage.

Fighters do twice the at-will damage that clerics do.

But the problem is that no class does support every round. A Cleric casts Bless then has to concentrate on it.

It's effectively the same thing.

Round 1: +1d4 to hit, as an action.
Round 2: +1d4 to hit, with concentration.
Round 3: +1d4 to hit, with concentration.
Round 4: +1d4 to hit, with concentration.
vs
Round 1: +1d4 to hit, as a bonus action.
Round 2: +1d4 to hit, as a bonus action.
Round 3: +1d4 to hit, as a bonus action.
Round 4: +1d4 to hit, as a bonus action.

After that you start throwing damage down range. At least, if you want to be useful you do.

Hmm... i never ran the numbers for help action.

Wizard helping the fighter.
(2d6+5) * .6 = 7.2
(2d6+5) * .84 = 10.08
= 2.88

Help action for rogue 11...

(1d8+6d6+5) = 30.5 * .6 = 18.3
advantage: 30.5 * .84 = 25.62
= +7.32 with the help action with a rogue.

That's actually not to bad for a rogue. But otherwise yes, a cleric would need to throw out some sacred flames or otherwise be ineffective.

Too bad help action only works for 1 attack. If it was all attacks, then helping a fighter 11 would be 2.88*3 = 8.64, close enough to (3d10*.6) = 9.9 firebolt. Particularly since i didn't include fighting style or feats.

 

[mellored]

Only needed to replace/modify 3 Fighter features and 1 Battle Master feature.

3 out of the 7 features is the majority of the class.
And your still dealing 2x the damage that a cleric does.

I suppose I could just write that up and call it an Alt Fighter, like say the Marshall.

That's the direction i'm working on. Making an alt-fighter that uses maneuvers similar to the playtest.

"Warrior" with.. fighter (damage), warlord (fear), marshal (defense), and arcane blade (1/3 caster) sub-classes.

And you can customize by picking from a bunch of maneuvers, like trip, help, disarm, grant attack, or extra attack.
Giving a martial class similar customization that spell casters get.


And throw in some book of 9 swords "near magical effects" fluff.