Water, water everywhere, Nor any drop to drink

[pemerton]

That's what the dice are for. Sometimes you roll well and have a hot steak. You are on your game, feeling good and doing awesome! Other times you can't catch a break no matter how well prepared you are.

A lot of this really should be done through role-playing and not limited to a class.

The same could be send of divine favour - that it should all in the dice rolls, or should be independent of class (qv Runequest, or the process for divine intervention in Gygax's DMG - which latter contrasts with the allocaiton of divine intervention, in 5e, to the cleric class).

But in D&D divine favour is allocated to a particular class. That's what happens in a class-based game. Similarly, high level thieves have a special propensity to be lucky, barbarians have a special propensity to be angry, etc.

An example occurs to me...
In The Avengers movie, Captain America gives a cop a bunch of orders. The cop basically says, "Why should I listen to you." Cap then proceeds to kick a whole lot of alien butt, then turns back to the cop. The cop turns and starts following Captain America's orders. Why? Because he is an incredibly good fighter.

A contrasting example: in one of the final episodes of the Born Again sequence, Daredevil hears Captain America giving orders to his fellow Avengers, and immediately understands why this mortal man can command a god (Thor).

Different works of fiction express differing conceptions of human relationships, and of charisma, the relationship between mortals and the divine, etc. Which is my point: the idea that the warlord raises challenging "fluff" issues is really a view about these matters.

In LotR, Faramir "can master both beasts and men" (p 840, Unwin 1 vol ed). There is also Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth (pp 852, 855-6):

[F]oremost on the field rode the swan-knights of Dol Amroth with their Prince and his blue banner at their head.

'Amroth for Gondor!' the cried. 'Amroth to Faramir!'​

. . .

So it was that Gandalf took command of the last defence of the City of Gondor. Wherever he came men's hearts would lift again, and the winged shadows pass from memory. . . . [W]ith him went the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shinging mail. For he and his knight still held themselves like lords in whom the race of Numenor ran true. . . . And then one would sing amid the gloom some staves of the Lay of Nimrodel, or other songs of the Value of Anduin out of vanished years.​

In that passage we also see bardic inspiration (and nothing to do with magic, except the everyday magic of song and sincere conviction) as well as Gandalf.

Gandalf is also an inspiring figure. He inspires Aragorn and Legolas, among others, at Helm's Deep (p 565):

'Behold the White Rider!' cried Aragorn. 'Gandalf is come again.'
'Mithrandir, Mithrandir!' said Legolas. 'This is wizardry indeed. . . .'​

The hosts of Isengard roared, swaying this way and that, turning from fear to fear. . . The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness.​

Gandalf inspires, too, in the final battle (pp 984-5):

All about the hills the hosts of Mordor raged. The Captains of the West were foundering in a gathering sea. . . . Aragorn stood beneath his banner, silent and stern . . . but his eyes gleamed like stars that shine brighter as the night deepens. Upon the hill-top stood Gandalf, and he was white and cold and no shadow fell on him. . . .

Then all the Captains of the West cried aloud, for their hearts were filled with a new hope in the midst of darkness. . . . But Gandalf lifted up his arms and called once more in a clear voice:

'Stand, Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom.'​

Just as the warlock, sorcerer and wizard all overlap heavily in trope, but give different approaches to the same archetype; and just as the war cleric and the paladin overlap heavily in trope, but give different approaches to the same archetype; so the bard and the battlemaster don't exhaust the ways in which an inspiring battle captain might be expressed mechanically.

 

[pemerton]

A side-comment on temp hit points: I really don't like them, and think they're a mostly unhelpful mechanic.

If you're a "hp = meat" person, then what are temp hp? More layers of meat? How would that make sense if it was not magical?

If you're a "hp = mix of mojo and meta" person, then what are temp hp? Mojoing you above your max mojo? If you're not already at max hp, on a mojo/meta perspective temp hp should just be healing.

As well as the conceptual issues, ever since the Aid spell I've found temp hp give rise to irritating corner cases that need special rules to handle.

In my 4e game luckily they don't come up very often, but the ranger-cleric does have a 16th level power Cloak of Courage (?) that grants all allies temp hp equal to surge value. It is often used at the start of a combat. Whether or not its overpowered, it's just boring. It would be better (in terms of making for more exciting play, by feeding into the back-and-forth dynamic of combat) if it was some sort of surgeless healing ability.

 

[Sadras]

I attempted to make a sub-class that traded attacks for maneuvers, along with trading more attacks for higher level maneuvers here.

Balance was fine, but it was too unwieldy. Maybe you'll have better luck.

I like the ability to trade a greater number of attacks for better maneuvers. It just needs polishing and perhaps there are some concerns about balance, but otherwise everyone on this sub-forum who would like a Warlord should really be looking at tinkering with this build instead of rehashing old tired arguments.

Personally I do think this as a basis or something certainly very similar is the way to go.

 

[jayoungr]

You are positing that no ever performs better unless some changes or enhancement to their internal mechanism takes place, such as "magic guiding their attacks".

I don't think anyone can or would make that claim of a game that includes the Help action.

To me, this doesn't fit particularly well with the real world, where sometimes people perform better than other times, in part because of the degree of inspiration or emotional intensity.

I can understand how it seems odd to some players not to decide for themselves when their PCs are inspired enough to perform better, however. And I know you'll say "But bards and clerics!"--but I don't think that invalidates the point; it merely focuses the discussion on degree.

How long had some of those Gondorian soldiers known Gandalf? Yet he inspired and heartened them.

I reeeeeeeeally don't think we should be using Gandalf as an example of completely mundane inspiration, because he is not a mundane being. Let's also not forget that shortly before this "inspiring and heartening," he had rescued Faramir from the nazgûl with some kind of bolt of white light, in full view of the entire city. I don't think this is completely unconnected to his ability to rally the Gondorian soldiers.

How long had some of Henry V's soldiers known him? Yet he inspired and heartened them.

...In part due to his rank and position as their king and military commander.

I'd be more interested in literary examples of inspiration coming from a completely mundane non-magical human who (1) is not already a leader/commander thanks to some kind of authority structure such as social class or military rank, and (2) does not end up being granted command over others thanks to his/her inspiring abilities (i.e. "We'll all willingly follow you because you inspire us!"). An inspirer among equals, in other words, which is what I think the warlord is theoretically aiming for? (Correct me if I'm wrong about that.)

So far, Captain America is the only example that I've seen of this particular model, and it's a good one--though it's worth noting that he is a commander of sorts, giving out assignments to others in his group (see point 2 above). Are there more? Bonus points if one of these inspirers-among-equals can inspire someone out of unconsciousness, though I recognize that might be more of a mechanical thing than a literary one.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

I'd be more interested in literary examples of inspiration coming from a completely mundane non-magical human who (1) is not already a leader thanks to some kind of authority structure such as social class or military rank, and (2) does not end up being granted authority thanks to his/her inspiring abilities (i.e. "We'll all willingly become your followers because you inspire us!"). An inspirer among equals, in other words, which is what I think the warlord is theoretically aiming for? (Correct me if I'm wrong about that.) So far, Captain America is the only example that I've seen of this particular model, and it's a good one; but if it's really such an archetype, there should be more.

This is precisely the sticking point in all these supposed "examples" of literary warlords. Unless we as a group sit down to play D&D, with buy-in that you will be our leader and inspiration buttress, I don't see most of these examples as being relevant at all.

And let us not forget that, as for Cap, the rest of the Avengers openly refer to him as their leader. Repeatedly. So the other members of the team have buy-in. When one (or more) of them begin to differ on the validity of that command, look what we get: Civil War!

 

[jayoungr]

I would imagine that they grew up hearing tales of Gandalf. He's legendary. Literally. And how many soldiers don't know their own king? And in both cases they are inspiring NPCs.

Did Gandalf stand back and encourage Aragorn to fight better? Did anyone in the Fellowship of the Ring need to be inspired or commanded by anyone else? They were all friends and comrades. They were extremely competent individuals that worked well together (for the most part).

Quoted for emphasis. I suspect hardly anyone would object to a warlord who only inspired NPCs. Whether such a thing would be mechanically viable is another question. It would probably only work in a campaign that made extensive use of henchmen/followers.

 

[mellored]

An inspirer among equals, in other words, which is what I think the warlord is theoretically aiming for? (Correct me if I'm wrong about that.)

IMO, i'd like to see the warlord as more of a tactician then an inspiration. Int based, rather then Cha based.

Though 4e had both, depending on the sub-class, and 3.5 mashal also said to have both, though it's actual ability was Cha based. Of course, 3.5 had Int for skills, and Cha was considered the universal dump stat so that might have something to do with it.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

I suspect hardly anyone would object to a warlord who only inspired NPCs.

This has been conceded multiple times by virtually everyone involved in these threads. Even some of the more adamant anti-warlorders who were involved in the debates saw no issues with such a thing as long as it was balanced.

 

[Jester David]

So it was that Gandalf took command of the last defence of the City of Gondor. Wherever he came men's hearts would lift again, and the winged shadows pass from memory. . . . [W]ith him went the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shinging mail. For he and his knight still held themselves like lords in whom the race of Numenor ran true. . . . And then one would sing amid the gloom some staves of the Lay of Nimrodel, or other songs of the Value of Anduin out of vanished years.[/indent]

In that passage we also see bardic inspiration (and nothing to do with magic, except the everyday magic of song and sincere conviction) as well as Gandalf.

Gandalf is also an inspiring figure. He inspires Aragorn and Legolas, among others, at Helm's Deep (p 565):

'Behold the White Rider!' cried Aragorn. 'Gandalf is come again.'
'Mithrandir, Mithrandir!' said Legolas. 'This is wizardry indeed. . . .'​

The hosts of Isengard roared, swaying this way and that, turning from fear to fear. . . The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness.​

Gandalf inspires, too, in the final battle (pp 984-5):

All about the hills the hosts of Mordor raged. The Captains of the West were foundering in a gathering sea. . . . Aragorn stood beneath his banner, silent and stern . . . but his eyes gleamed like stars that shine brighter as the night deepens. Upon the hill-top stood Gandalf, and he was white and cold and no shadow fell on him. . . .

Then all the Captains of the West cried aloud, for their hearts were filled with a new hope in the midst of darkness. . . . But Gandalf lifted up his arms and called once more in a clear voice:

'Stand, Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom.'​

Just as the warlock, sorcerer and wizard all overlap heavily in trope, but give different approaches to the same archetype; and just as the war cleric and the paladin overlap heavily in trope, but give different approaches to the same archetype; so the bard and the battlemaster don't exhaust the ways in which an inspiring battle captain might be expressed mechanically.

Uncertain if you're talking about generic bardic-esque inspiration or more warlord inspring healing, but either way the above isn't a particularly good example.
You're using the instance of a magical wizard countering unnatural fear caused by a ring wraith or bolstering the confidence of an entire army of common soldiers and conscripted farmers to justify a warlord inspiring a single heroic character. Gandalf doesn't even do anything, and just seems to possess a magical aura of courage. It's a better paladin description than warlord.

A side-comment on temp hit points: I really don't like them, and think they're a mostly unhelpful mechanic.

If you're a "hp = meat" person, then what are temp hp? More layers of meat? How would that make sense if it was not magical?

If you're a "hp = mix of mojo and meta" person, then what are temp hp? Mojoing you above your max mojo? If you're not already at max hp, on a mojo/meta perspective temp hp should just be healing.

As well as the conceptual issues, ever since the Aid spell I've found temp hp give rise to irritating corner cases that need special rules to handle.

In my 4e game luckily they don't come up very often, but the ranger-cleric does have a 16th level power Cloak of Courage (?) that grants all allies temp hp equal to surge value. It is often used at the start of a combat. Whether or not its overpowered, it's just boring. It would be better (in terms of making for more exciting play, by feeding into the back-and-forth dynamic of combat) if it was some sort of surgeless healing ability.

Temporary hit points don't make a lot of sense in a hp = energy/luck system.
But they work just fine in a hp = meat system since, not being hp, they can be energy/luck.

Personally, I reject the meat/luck division and argue the nature of hit points is instead entirely dependant on the source and nature of the damage being inflicted. (But, in my game, I lean towards meat and have adjusted healing as a result, removing overnight healing. But I'm not above describing player skill as reducing a fatal blow into a scratch.)
Similarly, the nature of temporary hp is dependant on the source. Magic is, well, magic, so it can be unnatural vigor,ignoring of wounds, or even rapid healing of inflicted injuries. Inspirational temporary hit points are funkier but work; as they're a different pool, the DM knows they need to describe the blow differently.

I love warlords granting temporary hit points, because it works with the conventions and tropes of the role so much better than healing.
You give the big inspirational speech before a battle or rally allies between skirmishes in a prolonged fight. You don't give your big speech to just one person occasionally in the middle of a fight or mostly at the end. But the nature or healing in D&D (4e excluded) focuses on healing after battles. Especially in 5e when combat healing is reduced. The warlord that heals would typically give their big inspiring speeches after the fight, topping everyone off. "Is anyone down? You're half? Let me inspire you a little."
Which really, really doesn't match what warlords should be doing, as portrayed in cinema. Or even how they were portrayed in 4e, since they'd seldom use their encounter heals outside of an encounter, as short rests handled healing between combats.
Temporary healing encourages warlords to rally allies prior to combat and give those speeches. It encourages them to act like commanders and generals. And it encourages them to use their powers during the fight rather than at the end.

 

[Jester David]

IMO, i'd like to see the warlord as more of a tactician then an inspiration. Int based, rather then Cha based.

Though 4e had both, depending on the sub-class, and 3.5 mashal also said to have both, though it's actual ability was Cha based. Of course, 3.5 had Int for skills, and Cha was considered the universal dump stat so that might have something to do with it.

Agreed.
Having the warlord overlap with the bard as the inspiring charismatic class is problematic (and diminishes what makes the bard unique by stealing it's one cool thing) but it also leaves the role of tactical intelligent fighter unfilled. That's a more open niche, and gives room for the warlord to be unique.