Water, water everywhere, Nor any drop to drink

[pemerton]

Consider the example of the Lawful Good Paladin of Bahamut working with a Cleric of Wee Jas. First they are going to need a good reason for working together, but we'll assume they have a common goal. Maybe the partnership is temporary. If the Paladin casts Bless there really is no problem with the Cleric accepting it. All he is doing is channeling his god's power to make a magical effect. Likewise if the Cleric cast Bless on the Paladin. It doesn't require the target to have any particular feeling towards the caster or his god. He could actively hate the caster and the spell would still work.

<snip>

The only thing required of the target is to accept that magic exists (it does) and to accept the spell being cast on him. He doesn't have to like, respect, or fear the caster or have his emotions manipulated in any way for the effect to be gained.

it makes zero sense for a Paladin of Bahumat to accept the blessing of a priest of Wee Jas. But, then, treating clerics as just like wizards is pretty much par for the course - the paladin isn't accepting anything, he's simply the target of a magical effect, no different than a wizard casting Haste. The fact that it's divine magic, comes from a divine source and that divine source is intelligent, aligned, and comes complete with a belief system, doesn't matter. A spell is a spell is a spell. :/

On this issue I'm closer to Hussar. I don't see that a cleric's spell is just a "magical effect" divorced from its origin. The cleric is a conduit between a god and the recipient of the blessing. The idea that a cleric of Bahamut would accept a blessing channelled from Wee Jas or Tiamat is bizarre to me.

I don't like the Warlord, but I recognize that others do like them. So go ahead and include it, but it needs to be optional. If anyone in the party has a problem with it, then you shouldn't force it on them.

Isn't everything in the game optional in this way? D&D is a social pastime.

 

[Sadras]

I am not able to justify Battlemasters. I do not like them any better than Warlords. Well, no, I like them better in the sense that they don't do the things I don't like nearly as often as a Warlord would. They are at least limited by their dice pool*. Most of the time they are just going to be hitting things like a regular sensible Fighter.

*Which also doesn't make sense. Why can't you disarm this guy? Oh right, you disarmed those four guards earlier and now you can't disarm anyone again because... uh... just because! Dontworryaboutit! Ugh.

To deal with this issue, we have implemented an Endurance check with a variable HD cost when characters OF ANY CLASS perform any ability above their standard limitation. It works well so far thankfully and uses the Fatigue chart for failures.

So go ahead and include it, but it needs to be optional. If anyone in the party has a problem with it, then you shouldn't force it on them.

I don't see this as much of an issue. Although interestingly enough there was a thread here a while ago where certain posters (some on this very thread) were advocating that all classes/races be permitted to players despite setting or DM dislike for them which personally I think is unfair.

 

[jayoungr]

Bardic Inspiration
"You can inspire others through stirring words or music..."

Nope Bardic inspiration on its own doesn't sound very magical to me. Maybe there's some fluff in the 5e Players Handbook associated with it that I am missing?

I wish Bardic Inspiration was magic, and honestly I house rule it that way. But, as I just stated above, I have the same problem with the non-magic bardic inspiration.

Bardic Inspiration is magic. Emphasis mine in the quotes below.

From the PHB, page 8: "Without the uplifting magical support of bards and clerics, warriors might be overwhelmed by powerful foes."

Page 45, definition of a bard in the table: "An inspiring magician whose power echoes the music of creation."

Page 51, a vignette that depicts Bardic Inspiration in in-game terms: "A stern human warrior bangs his sword rhythmically against his scale mail, setting the tempo for his war chant and exhorting his companions to bravery and heroism. The magic of his song fortifies and emboldens them."

Same page, under "Music and Magic": "In the worlds of D&D, words and music are not just vibrations of air, but vocalizations with power all their own. The bard is a master of song, speech, and the magic they contain. Bards say that the multiverse was spoken into existence, that the words of the gods gave it shape, and that echoes of these primordial Words of Creation still resound throughout the cosmos. The music of bards is an attempt to snatch and harness those echoes, subtly woven into their spells and powers."

The point you're missing is that bardic Inspiration is maaaagic and therefore we can completely ignore any disconnect.

I can hear the sarcasm in your voice with the italics and extra a's in "magic," but why do you sneer at the idea that magical inspiration carries fewer implications about how the PCs relate to each other than mundane inspiration?

 

[mellored]

Look, I don't like the Warlord, but I recognize that others do like them. So go ahead and include it, but it needs to be optional. If anyone in the party has a problem with it, then you shouldn't force it on them. It is the same as playing a Lawful Good Paladin that is going to force a morality code on his party or a Chaotic Evil Assassin that is going to murder every villager he meets. If anyone in the party has a problem with those characters then they should not be allowed. The Warlord is in the same camp.

Or a cleric shoving their religion down your throat. Or a bard telling you that you feel inspired. Or a Wizard who tells you not to rush in so he can fireball. Or a dwarf barbarian who rages at every elf in sight in a genocidal effort.

I agree. It's a social game. People need to follow social constructs. Warlord class isn't an exception, but it's also not the cause.

 

[FrogReaver]

Bardic Inspiration is magic. Emphasis mine in the quotes below.

From the PHB, page 8: "Without the uplifting magical support of bards and clerics, warriors might be overwhelmed by powerful foes."

Page 45, definition of a bard in the table: "An inspiring magician whose power echoes the music of creation."

Page 51, a vignette that depicts Bardic Inspiration in in-game terms: "A stern human warrior bangs his sword rhythmically against his scale mail, setting the tempo for his war chant and exhorting his companions to bravery and heroism. The magic of his song fortifies and emboldens them."

Same page, under "Music and Magic": "In the worlds of D&D, words and music are not just vibrations of air, but vocalizations with power all their own. The bard is a master of song, speech, and the magic they contain. Bards say that the multiverse was spoken into existence, that the words of the gods gave it shape, and that echoes of these primordial Words of Creation still resound throughout the cosmos. The music of bards is an attempt to snatch and harness those echoes, subtly woven into their spells and powers."


I can hear the sarcasm in your voice with the italics and extra a's in "magic," but why do you sneer at the idea that magical inspiration carries fewer implications about how the PCs relate to each other than mundane inspiration?

Thanks for your research. I found a line that can be used to justify warlord inspiration

PHB 51 (Music and Magic) "In the worlds of D&D, words and music are not just vibrations of air, but vocalizations with power all their own."

I guess all speech is magical in DND Warlord problem solved

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Yeah, nothing new. That's been offered up a few times already. You will find certain hardcore warlord fans are not at all interested in your attempt to magic-ify their mundane support role concept.

 

[mellored]

Yeah, nothing new. That's been offered up a few times already. You will find certain hardcore warlord fans are not at all interested in your attempt to magic-ify their mundane support role concept.

About as magical as half-orc's not dying and getting extra crit damage, falling 1000' and not dying, giants who's legs don't break when they step, Aarakocra flying with it's wing span, the growth rate of kobolds, rust monsters, any of the other things in D&D that couldn't actually exsist in our world and are not explicitly described as magical.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Whatevs <shrug>. Just try telling that to folks like Tony, and a few others here, who would be all up in arms* if a warlord's class features were even hinted at being magical. Even mildly.

(*I say with confidence because it's already happened every time this was offered as a compromise in the past.)

 

[jayoungr]

Suggested further reading on the "magic of words" topic: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...terpretation-Inspirational-Healing-Compromise

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Oh man. I totally forgot about El Mahdi! Wow. Thanks for the link and stroll down memory lane, [MENTION=6702445]jayoungr[/MENTION]