Water, water everywhere, Nor any drop to drink

FrogReaver said:
I understand your problem with the warlord and warlord-esque concepts already present in DND 5e.

What I don't understand is how you can see all these warlord-esque concepts already present in 5e and then draw the line in the sand at the warlord. If such concepts are already present then what does it matter if we or the devs consolidate such concepts into a single cohesive class?
Bump for the mighty Lord Twig.

Wow. Mighty. I'm inspired to write a response. ;)

I think I have answered this before, but it is a matter of degree. A Bard hands out inspiration dice as a secondary action to whatever else she is doing. Bardic Inspiration is a bonus action, her Primary action is going to be casting spells or attacking.

Likewise with the Battle Master Fighter. Mostly he is fighting. His Warlord-esque abilities are in addition to regular attacking. Of course this is precisely what Warlord fans don't like about the Battle Master.

Then there is the matter of flavoring.

The Bard is explicitly a magical class. The Bard is a primary spell caster, there are hints that her music is magically empowered. This makes the odd behavior of Bardic Inspiration a little more logical (can only do it Cha mod number of times a day, can be used for just about any roll in the next 10 minutes, etc.).

The Battle Master maneuvers can be flavored as actual maneuvers. For example, you can say that you don't get an extra attack from Commander's Strike because you are inspired by the Battle Master, or because he points out an opening you missed, it could be because he actually created that opening for you to take advantage of with his own attack. That makes a lot more sense to me.

The Warlord however negates all these points. He doesn't inspire as a secondary action, he is doing it as his primary action. It is his whole focus. And there is no subtle magic, it is decidedly anti-magic. There is no action that he takes to rationalize the bonuses he grants, you must be inspired by him.

Just like you say, it consolidates all of the concepts I dislike into one class. So it's pretty obvious what the problem is, isn't it?

Oh, and the Mastermind Rogue and Purple Dragon Knight are more problematic than either the Bard or Battle Master. They are harder to rationalize, the Mastermind with his ranged Help and PDK with his shout healing. But as they are not in the PHB, they are easier to ban.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

One thing that confuses discussion of low/no 'magic' campaigns in whether 'magic' refers to caster resources, magic items, or both. I was referring mainly to casters. You could have an all-martial party in a regular-magic campaign, for instance, just because no one wanted to play a caster of any kind. Or you could have a low/no magic campaign where casters are restricted or banned.
1e-2e had a fair amount of magic classes and clerical magic was all but required to heal in a reasonable rate.
True, perhaps even understated.
3e was rife with magic, with everyone having a magical arsenal.
Magic items were also assumed in 4e and there was no non-magical controller.
Both had rules for inherent bonuses that reduced or eliminated magic item dependency, though that's of secondary interest. 3e lacked formal roles, and controller was the most dispensable role. 4e worked seamlessly whether you included items or used inherent bonuses, 3e required at least magic items and UMD for Wands of CLW and the like, so fell short when you got into low/no magic in terms of both casters and items even if you used inherent bonuses. 3e also ran into issues out of the lowest levels because CR was calibrated with spells & items assumed (and at the lowest levels before WoCLW became trivially available). 5e offers very few non-caster options (5 out of 38 sub-classes in the PH), and there's not a lot of variety among those options. They're all primarily focused on contributing DPR, whether it's via multi-attacking, rage or SA. But, 5e does have HD & overnight healing, and with a little tweaking, they could be adequate for handling healing over the course of the day even without magic items - all it needs is another primarily-non-casting class or two to open up a wider range of capabilities & contributions and it's there.

Yes, there are people that are inspiring. They can convince people to fight for a cause, but once they are fighting I doubt they can make them fight any better.
History should alleviate your doubts. Morale has very often been the most important factor in determining victory in military engagements.

Certainly not on a blow by blow basis. Someone mentioned a boxing coach. Do you really thing a boxer is twice as effective if the coach is in the corner saying, "Hit him again! Hit him harder!" Really?
Matches aren't determined on margins like that, no. 5% more effective could be decisive.

There is nothing inconsistent about magic in D&D.
It is, arbitrarily, what it is. D&D magic isn't consistent with genre, with RL beliefs about magic, or anything else other than the way magic has been handled in D&D.

It is the fact that my character has to be inspired by your character to gain the effect. No only that, but he gains the effect whether I want my character to be inspired or not. I can choose to not use the effect, but it doesn't change the fact that my character was inspired, against my will, and can take an extra attack now. Refusing to use it doesn't change that.
There's no reason to think the /player/ declining the extra attack wouldn't mean that he's deciding his PC wasn't inspired. For that matter, if you're not an 'ally' you could decline many magical effects, as well. It really seems like it could only be a problem for a player who was determined to make it a problem.


* The only real difference in 4e between a defender and a controller is that the former acts in melee rather than at range - the distinction, therefore, is mostly a legacy one, intended to preserve the classic D&D contrast between the fighter and the wizard.
The Controller Role did feel a little 'legacy,' yes, like it was contrived to justify the wizard having better powers than the other PH1 classes. Most classes had secondary roles, and most roles had more than one sort of contribution to make. Controllers de-buffed and locked down enemies, swept away minions, and altered the battlefield. They tended to do so at range, but the Druid could do so in melee, as well, for example. No Martial class was formally a controller or called out as a secondary controller the way the Cleric was, but each could cover a little bit of controller functionality. You mentioned fighters with close burst attacks, he also had a cleave at will. The Rogue and Warlord had a few, too, and Rogue and Ranger the odd close blast, the Ranger even having some ranged bursts. So there's your minion-sweeping. You're also right that defenders essentially de-buffed/locked-down enemies in melee, and that overlaps the controller role some. All the classes also has condition they could impose, and the Warlord has some de-buffing. So, while you couldn't really call any one Martial Class a controller or even a secondary controller (the Ranger probably came closest to the latter).
 


Wow. Mighty. I'm inspired to write a response. ;)

I think I have answered this before, but it is a matter of degree. A Bard hands out inspiration dice as a secondary action to whatever else she is doing. Bardic Inspiration is a bonus action, her Primary action is going to be casting spells or attacking.

Likewise with the Battle Master Fighter. Mostly he is fighting. His Warlord-esque abilities are in addition to regular attacking. Of course this is precisely what Warlord fans don't like about the Battle Master.
Ummmm....no. What warlord fans dislike is generally the idea that the warlord is fighting on the same level of damage/multiattack-output-proficiency as the fighter, when they typically want to be on the same level as either the valor bard or cleric. Of course many warlord fans want the warlord to be fighting.

The Battle Master maneuvers can be flavored as actual maneuvers. For example, you can say that you don't get an extra attack from Commander's Strike because you are inspired by the Battle Master, or because he points out an opening you missed, it could be because he actually created that opening for you to take advantage of with his own attack. That makes a lot more sense to me.
Why can't the warlord then be the same in that flavoring then? She would be a class more oriented towards seeing and creating openings.

The Warlord however negates all these points. He doesn't inspire as a secondary action, he is doing it as his primary action. It is his whole focus. And there is no subtle magic, it is decidedly anti-magic. There is no action that he takes to rationalize the bonuses he grants, you must be inspired by him.
You say this as if the warlord's abilities were set in stone. Is there an official 5E class I am unaware of with these abilities?

Oh, and the Mastermind Rogue and Purple Dragon Knight are more problematic than either the Bard or Battle Master. They are harder to rationalize, the Mastermind with his ranged Help and PDK with his shout healing. But as they are not in the PHB, they are easier to ban.
Are you suggesting that the Warlord would be inserted into the PHB too and impossible to ban? If so, the Warlord's abilities would truly be magical if that were the case, but thankfully you wouldn't have a problem with that sort of high magical flavor for the Warlord.
 

Ummmm....no. What warlord fans dislike is generally the idea that the warlord is fighting on the same level of damage/multiattack-output-proficiency as the fighter...
But even using the options currently available this is not the case. A fighter choosing not to explore support options is going to instead increase "damage/multiattack-output-proficiency". Therefore pull ahead.

...when they typically want to be on the same level as either the valor bard or cleric.
Which the current options available will allow you to do.

Of course many warlord fans want the warlord to be fighting.
Are you suggesting some people are asking for a warlord to have the best of both worlds? I agree. Some people ask too much of their pet project. IMO, that's why we get so many broken/OP/unwieldy homebrew attempts and suggestions.
 

But even using the options currently available this is not the case. A fighter choosing not to explore support options is going to instead increase "damage/multiattack-output-proficiency". Therefore pull ahead.

Which the current options available will allow you to do.
Your writing is vague here. Would you mind clarifying what you are actually arguing?

Are you suggesting some people are asking for a warlord to have the best of both worlds? I agree. Some people ask too much of their pet project. IMO, that's why we get so many broken/OP/unwieldy homebrew attempts and suggestions.
I suggest that you back off from the rude misconstruction of my argument and what warlord fans advocate.
 

Your writing is vague here. Would you mind clarifying what you are actually arguing?
I could ask the same. I replied to your generally vague malaise with a like-detailed response. Perhaps you should consider clarifying what it is you are specifically arguing for/against? Such that I can provide a more comprehensive counterpoint (or maybe even agree with you, depending on what it is you are actually going on about).

I suggest that you back off from the rude misconstruction of my argument and what warlord fans advocate.
I suggest I did no such thing. Again, perhaps your own vagueness is the source of the misunderstanding.
 

Ummmm....no. What warlord fans dislike is generally the idea that the warlord is fighting on the same level of damage/multiattack-output-proficiency as the fighter, when they typically want to be on the same level as either the valor bard or cleric. Of course many warlord fans want the warlord to be fighting.

This was basically what I was saying, I guess I wasn't clear enough. The Battle Master is mostly fighting. Up to four attacks around and all that, with maneuvers just being the frosting on top. And I said that was what Warlord fans disliked.

So I think we are on the same page here.

Why can't the warlord then be the same in that flavoring then? She would be a class more oriented towards seeing and creating openings.

You could do it that way. I doubt most Warlord fans would be happy. Note that this would preclude healing, as they can't attack in such a way as to make your wounds close.

You say this as if the warlord's abilities were set in stone. Is there an official 5E class I am unaware of with these abilities?

I am going off of what I have heard people want the Warlord to do. Primary focus on support. Shouting commands, inspiring his teammates, pointing out opportunities that everyone else misses and encouraging people to heal (because, you know, they weren't already motivated to not die). And none of that is magical in any way.

Are you suggesting that the Warlord would be inserted into the PHB too and impossible to ban? If so, the Warlord's abilities would truly be magical if that were the case, but thankfully you wouldn't have a problem with that sort of high magical flavor for the Warlord.

No. I said nothing of the kind.

I said that since the new Warlord-esque subclasses are in a supplement they are easier to ban because you can just say only PHB subclasses, for example. Any official Warlord would, obviously, be published in a supplement of some sort, so it would be in the same situation.

And I have already said up-thread that a Warlord probably should be an option for those that really want one, but it should be the most optional of optional classes. In my opinion it has the same problem as a Lawful Good Paladin that forces his morality on his teammates or a Chaotic Evil Assassin the requires the other party members to support his murderous rampages. Likewise a Warlord requires the rest of the party to accept his inspiration and leadership (even if it is unofficial, I'm just leading by example, leadership).
 
Last edited:

Yes, this happens. It doesn't happen in the way you've put it, but it certainly happens in combat sports.

Consider an MMA fight. There is a gameplan going in. You will hear a coach reiterating instructions to a fighter and that fighter, who is currently forgetting their gameplan and just reacting on instinct, will adjust in real time. And these aren't abstract instructions. You're talking about things like:

* Circle left, circle left, circle left (or right)!
* Underhooks, underhooks!
* Hip up, hip up!
* Watch the triangle, watch the triangle!
* Change levels, change levels!
* Lead left > double leg!

Etc, etc, etc. Corners aren't just shouting specific instructions to hear their own voices.

It happens in ball sports.

Consider basketball (effectively squad-based skirmish with 5 participants per squad, much more akin to D&D). I'm 38 and change. I've been playing this game since I was 4. I've played with an enormous number of players of varying athleticism, moxie, and instinct/IQ.

Those latter guys with a high level of moxie and/or instinct/IQ? Despite the fact that they may not have athletic parity with other players on the court, they are force-multipliers in the extreme...and not in some abstract, unable-to be quantified way (the W.A.R. stat in sports these days just that). They do things, in the very moment that improves the players they are playing with. You're talking about things like:

* Calling out picks, communicating them quickly and effectively to the guy getting screened and helping as needed.

* Seeing backscreens and backdoor plays before they manifest and effectively communicating them to remove the offense's potential competitive advantage.

* When in a zone defense, effectively communicating where offenders are cutting and making the zone vulnerable so an unaware teammate can recover (and often briefly covering for them).

* Quickly determining a teammate's deficiencies and an opponent's strengths/weaknesses and communicating how this competitive disadvantage can be mitigated (such as "force him to go left").

* Always hustling after (and typically winning) loose balls where the prospects of retaining/gaining possession are 50/50. This may even involve diving on the floor. This becomes infectious. You invariably see this shaming or inspiring (which is basically the same thing when it comes to utility) teammates to do the same.

* Guiding offensive traffic (cuts, guard-arounds, etc) and setting effective screens (back or ball screens) and eating the (often painful) contact to gain a competitive advantage for his teammates.

Etc, etc, etc. This happens in real time.

Extreme situational awareness and tactical acumen (which go along with the ability to process information staggeringly fast and effectively communicate it with mental shorthand so it triggers muscle memory) are major advantages. Except for with the most self-celebrating, narcissistic little me-first Bs (who are losers that you don't want anything to do with anyway), grit and cool are utterly infectious at an unconscious level (later you can appreciate it consciously).

Guys/gals that possess these traits, whether that be a particular noncoms in a war or a savvy vet on the court, are huge difference-makers for group efficiency/proficiency and morale both in real-time and during brief moments of down-time.

Real long post, so I think it deserves a response. Unfortunately all I can say is anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

I don't watch much sports, it's not my thing. But the few times I have seen an NBA game I don't recall seeing one player yelling at the other players telling them what to do. But I will fully admit I am no authority on sports. Quite the opposite in fact.
 

What I love about these sports analogies is that it always implies one of the players on the field (or the coach, whomever) is a "warlord" for inspiring and motivating his players to play harder/better.

Yet I, as an avid sports fan, often see a player step up and take on that role in a particular moment, only to have a different player do so a few games later when the situation or circumstances present themselves.

Hrmmm, I guess every player on the field/court is potentially a warlord...
 

Remove ads

Top