Water, water everywhere, Nor any drop to drink

[ChrisCarlson]

Good thing he doesn't have that ability.

Edit: Inspired by, yes. Respect or admire no.

What's in *your* wallet?

If you have to slice "inspired" down to such an artificially narrow definition, such that it loses its actual meaning, maybe that's saying something...

 

[Bawylie]

Hyperbole, my friend. I never stated any rear-kissing was required. Not verbal accolades. Only that warlord inspirational class features generally state that the effect is a result of the recipients respecting, admiring and/or looking up to the warlord as a leader and/or their inspiration.

Can you present any that do not? I'm not saying there aren't any. Just that I don't recall any that fail to state such a condition in their write-up.

It IS hyperbole. Because that's comedy gold. Anyway, here's the big offender - this is the one everybody who complains about the warlord hates in particular. And it doesn't say anything about how you have to respect him.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

No it's not. Please don't tell me what "the big offender" is to me. Unless you can quote where I've singled out that particular power as the part of warlords that I do not want to see in 5e.

 

[pemerton]

Are you saying a barbarian, druid, monk, ranger*, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard, should not be capable of inspiring his allies?

I am saying that none of them is as good at it as a character built with resources dedicated to that - much like none of those characters can call upon the mercy of the gods as well as a character built with resources dedicated to that; much like none of them (except the warlock) can make a pact with a devil to the same degree of effectiveness as a character built with resources dedicated to that.

You seem to think there is some sort of natural law which means that it is appropriate for pact-swearing, or being beloved of the gods, to be class features; but being inspirational should not be. To me, the distinction seems arbitrary.

Why would you think all characters' increased proficiency bonus is a result of divine guidance and blessing?

As per the Gygax quote, I think that for all characters that is some of it. I think for paladins and clerics it is probably most of it.

when a warlord has an ability that dictates that your PC is granted a benny because he respects, admires, or is inspired by, them, that's a different crossed line. It is no longer a matter of roleplaying but one of crunch. Its the whole thing of player agency at play.

If your character doesn't like my warlord, or does not find his/her words inspiring, why can't you as a player decline the offered buff?

That's how it worked in 4e, so why would 5e be any different?

In practice, I suspect that most tables would let a player decline a Bless on his/her PC also, even though technically that would be against the rules. (By the rules, Bless appears to be mind control with no save.)

 

[Bawylie]

No it's not. Please don't tell me what "the big offender" is to me. Unless you can quote where I've singled out that particular power as the part of warlords that I do not want to see in 5e.

Fair enough. I didn't mean Big Offender to you personally. But that is the one that IMO draws the most criticism. It's the "shouting wounds closed" power AS WELL AS nominally the "why does this dude automatically inspire me a set number of times per day but no more?" power.

I don't speak for you, of course.

 

[pemerton]

Here is some of the warlord flavour text from the 4e PHB (I've only surveyed powers up to 5th level, for reasons of time and space):

You call out to a wounded ally and offer inspiring words of courage and determination that helps that ally heal.

With a shout, you command an ally to attack.

You slam your shield into your enemy, bash him with your weapon’s haft, or drive your shoulder into his gut. Your attack doesn’t do much damage -but your anger inspires your ally to match your ferocity.

You trick your adversary into making a tactical error that gives your comrade a chance to strike.

Step by step, you and your friends surround the enemy.

With a calculated strike, you knock your adversary off balance and grant your comrade-in-arms some protection against the villain’s attacks.

You land a ringing blow against your foe, inspiring a nearby ally to strike a blow of his own.

Like a leaf caught in the autumn wind, your foe is driven by the flow of battle. Your fierce attacks force him to give ground.

With a calculated blow, you leave your adversary exposed to an imminent attack from one of your closest allies.

Honorable warriors never fall!

Under your direction, arrows hit their marks and blades drive home.

No matter where your foe turns, one of your allies is waiting for him.

You lead the way with a powerful attack, using your success to create an opportunity for one of your allies. Each of your comrades in turn seizes on your example and begins to display true teamwork.

Your presence is both a comfort and an inspiration.

A timely critical hit affords you the opportunity to rally a wounded ally.

With a sharp wave of your arm, you direct one of your allies to a more tactically advantageous position.

You convince yourself or an ally to shake off a debilitating effect.

With a snap series of commands, you keep your allies in formation and well defended as you assault your adversary.

As you strike, you shout a fierce war cry that heartens a nearby ally. He immediately attempts to shake off whatever condition troubles him most.

You leap into the fray with a wild, whirling attack - but your movements are carefully calculated to distract nearby enemies and give your allies a chance to move into position.

One convincing cut is all you need to reveal the enemy’s weakness and spur your allies into finishing him off.

You will not be denied victory! A determined strike lifts the spirits of your beleaguered allies and restores their fighting spirit.

A well-placed strike catches your foe off guard and allows you or a nearby ally to shake off some effect.

You use weapon thrusts, lunges, and parries to hedge in your adversary, preventing him from moving away from you.​

Here are the verbs that relate the warlord to his/her allies:

inspire *4

comfort, hearten, lift the spirit, rally, spur

lead the way

convince

command *2

direct *2​

I'm not seeing a very strong implication that the warlord is the party leader - of 24 powers, 2 allow the warlord to give a command (which the other PC may or may not comply with) and 2 allow the warlord to give direction (which the other PC may or may not follow. I don't see how the flavour of this is any different from 5e's existing battlemaster.

We mostly have the warlord inspiring, heartening, rallying, spurring on, etc. That doesn't imply that the warlord is the party leader. Nor does it imply that the other PCs have any particular relationship with the warlord, other than being open to his/her heartening or inspiring words. And, again, if a player doesn't want his/her PC to accept the buff, why is s/he forced to?

 

[Bawylie]

They're not forced to.

 

[Hussar]

Shhhh. Providing actual evidence isn't going to matter. Good grief, we already HAVE the tactical Warlord standing right there that has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with inspiration, but, that's also not valid because, apparently, people figure that their character, regardless of level, have 100% perfect tactical awareness at all possible times, and there is absolutely no chance that a second observer could possibly see an opportunity that these paragons of combat could miss.

Personally I'd LOVE to see how a Warlord power like Hammer and Anvil could possibly be objectionable.

Hammer and Anvil warlord attack 1
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee Weapon
Target: one creature
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: "1[W] + Strength modifier damage. One ally adjacent to the target can make a melee basic attack against it as a free action, with a bonus to the damage roll equal to your Charisma modifier."[PH:145][Dr397:17]

 

[Umbran]

Shhhh. Providing actual evidence isn't going to matter.

Dude, the snark is not welcome. If you feel that someone is not discussing in good faith, then it is time to quietly disengage and go find something constructive to talk about.

You are far too smart to pretend you don't know this to be true: Making a public fuss, and impugning the thought processes of others, merely makes sides dig in even more, and makes this discussion about the egos of people involved, rather than makes it more reasonable. This kind of attacking rhetoric does not make the discussion better. Please avoid it in the future.

EVERYONE: Don't make it personal. Address the content of the post, not the person of the poster. At least, if you want to try to have a reasoned discussion.

 

[Lord Twig]

Took me awhile to catch up with this thread. But this is really good. I will pull out only the powers that are problematic...

You call out to a wounded ally and offer inspiring words of courage and determination that helps that ally heal.

Requires your ally to be inspired by you (or your words at least).

With a shout, you command an ally to attack.

Commanding another player's character.

You slam your shield into your enemy, bash him with your weapon’s haft, or drive your shoulder into his gut. Your attack doesn’t do much damage -but your anger inspires your ally to match your ferocity.

Requires another character to be inspired by your attack. Why aren't you ever inspired by their awesome attacks? Oh, right, mechanics.

You land a ringing blow against your foe, inspiring a nearby ally to strike a blow of his own.

Your inspiring again.

Under your direction, arrows hit their marks and blades drive home.

Direction. Command. Same thing.

You lead the way with a powerful attack, using your success to create an opportunity for one of your allies. Each of your comrades in turn seizes on your example and begins to display true teamwork.

Leading by example. You are showing them how true teamwork is done. Because they can't do teamwork without you I guess?

Your presence is both a comfort and an inspiration.

How is this not requiring other characters to believe you are an inspiration? It says it right there!

A timely critical hit affords you the opportunity to rally a wounded ally.

Get a critical hit and you can inspire an ally with some rally talk.

With a sharp wave of your arm, you direct one of your allies to a more tactically advantageous position.

Here's that commanding thing again.

You convince yourself or an ally to shake off a debilitating effect.

How do you convince yourself to shake off an effect? I mean, I understand talking to yourself every once in awhile, but talking yourself better? And of course the ally can't shake off the effect himself unless you tell him to.

With a snap series of commands, you keep your allies in formation and well defended as you assault your adversary.

This is great for small unit tactics with a clear chain of command. I guess the rest of the party are your soldiers.

As you strike, you shout a fierce war cry that heartens a nearby ally. He immediately attempts to shake off whatever condition troubles him most.

Heartens. Inspires. Same thing. You are inspiring (or your war cry is).

One convincing cut is all you need to reveal the enemy’s weakness and spur your allies into finishing him off.

You must spur your allies on after all, otherwise they would just make a halfhearted attempt at finishing off their enemy.

You will not be denied victory! A determined strike lifts the spirits of your beleaguered allies and restores their fighting spirit.

Assumes your allies fighting spirit needed lifting in the first place. But you are inspiring enough that you can lift their spirits even if they aren't feeling down I guess.

A well-placed strike catches your foe off guard and allows you or a nearby ally to shake off some effect.

This one is just a head scratcher. You aren't inspiring your ally. Or commanding. He just feels better because you got a good hit in?

So there you go. When I read these powers this is what comes to mind. I understand that others might read it differently. If you look at it from the Warlords point of view it's awesome, but from the perspective of those that they are used on, not so much.

All this IMHO of course.