D&D 5E Waterdeep: Dragon Heist Post-Mortem (Spoilers)

[Hussar]

Sure, players often like to be given direction "This way to the epic story ->" but they don't like to feel that there decisions don't matter. And eventually even the most biddable players are going to make a decision that the AP writer didn't anticipate. The longer the path, the more likely that becomes. An experienced DM will deal with that and create new content that reacts to the new timeline, but some DMs will try to force the party to follow WHAT IS WRITTEN DOWN.

You're kinda missing my point. My point is that there are absolutely players who have zero problems with their decisions not mattering. They have no problem whatsoever being lockstep shuffled from one encounter to the next without any input. These players most certainly do exist and they aren't rare. I've seen players like this come across my table over and over again, regardless of age or edition.

When you have players like that, presenting them with choices is actually counter productive. Faced with a choice, they basically shut down and look at you, waiting for you to tell them which way to go. They are there to experience the ride and expect the DM to provide the experience. They have zero interest in "creating stories" or any form of authorship at all.

Hell, there's even a term for it - pawn stance play.

 

[Retreater]

So as you know I’m also running it. How is it a railroad if you don’t mind me asking?

I mean the prologue gets the PCs to Bogenhafen in a pretty hamfisted way but really that’s just the set up of the campaign.

We've only played through the first half of the first book. And it did open up once they reached Bogenhafen, especially when I started adding in the sidequests from the city guide. They don't mind not having dungeons - in fact they were very hesitant to go into the first one.
The one event that really reinforced the railroad (and it may have been how I handled the situation):

Spoiler

I wouldn't let them charm or convince the Bounty Hunter they weren't in league with the Purple Hand. He wouldn't call off the attack for a peaceful resolution.

As for Bogenhafen the adventure fully predicts that the adventure could go pear shaped and details potential consequences of getting it wrong. Bogenhafen is one of those rare adventures where PCs failing is possible and described - also acknowledged in later sessions.

Yeah, they aren't feeling that way now. On top of the investigation in Bogenhafen, I have so many side quests going on, they're getting almost overwhelmed. Some are asking to play solo adventures so they can deal with their own missions and interests. For example, I had a squire disguise himself as a noble to compete in the jousting tournament and win a cash prize. A warrior priest of Myrmidia is trying to track down the stolen "lance" from the chapel. Meanwhile, the group just discovered "the door" and are getting ready to face something very, very awful.
I think they're hooked at this point, but the first couple sessions regularly required me to say "hang on, you guys are really going to love this once it gets going."

 

[Retreater]

What do people actually mean when they call something a railroad?

When I criticize DH for being a railroad, that's predominantly because of the Chase chapter (which is a pretty important section of the adventure). The other sections are largely either freeform or at least not any more railroady than any other adventure. But that Chase chapter is something else. It doesn't matter how good (or bad) rolls are; it doesn't matter how clever (or dense) the characters are. The same thing happens regardless.

 

[Retreater]

For me, honestly, that's the worst design ever. The Deck of Many Things is a relic of a past where basically this forces you to play russian roulette with your character to advance in the adventure. Absolutely hateful, I would stop playing the adventure at that point.

It's been a long time since I ran that one (too long to do a Post-Mortem haha). I do remember it being one of the better produced adventures for 4e (which might not be saying a lot).
I can't recall if it was in the adventure or my own thought, but I didn't run it like that was the actual Deck of Many Things. Kind of an experiment gone wrong. It felt like a funhouse dungeon like "White Plume Mountain," which was a good change of pace.
I do remember a part where cards were posted on doors and opening the doors would trigger the effect. I allowed the party to roll to identify the cards and their effects, do skill challenges to minimize (or completely avoid) the traps.

 

[Retreater]

Thanks for this, always interesting to hear how other groups go with an adventure. Out of interest, what was the party in terms of race/class.

I'm glad you're enjoying reading it. It's been helpful for me to write these Post-Mortems.
I've run a lot of games since this one, but I think I remember the basic party composition.
Elf bard, gnome illusionist, half-elf trickery cleric, and half-orc barbarian. The player of the half-orc barbarian was a little irregular with attendance due to work, finishing up grad school, etc., so I'd play an NPC at times to help round out the party. Normally this would be a human warlock noblewoman.

 

[robus]

I’d really prefer these adventure books to have 3 or 4 separate adventures for the different tiers. So a water deep adventure book would have some tier 1, 2 & 3 adventures (tier 4 seems a bit weird for urban adventures and groups rarely make it that far), the DM is then at liberty to connect them or not. In fact it would be great if there were 3 tier 1 adventures 2 tier 2 and 1 tier 3.

I really don’t like the fact that these adventures are always on track to fight some great threat from step 1.

 

[Lyxen]

I do remember a part where cards were posted on doors and opening the doors would trigger the effect. I allowed the party to roll to identify the cards and their effects, do skill challenges to minimize (or completely avoid) the traps.

If it's not completely random and there's some choice, it's slightly better. Still traumatised from early Gygaxian randomness, I suppose...

 

[Burnside]

I’d really prefer these adventure books to have 3 or 4 separate adventures for the different tiers. So a water deep adventure book would have some tier 1, 2 & 3 adventures (tier 4 seems a bit weird for urban adventures and groups rarely make it that far), the DM is then at liberty to connect them or not. In fact it would be great if there were 3 tier 1 adventures 2 tier 2 and 1 tier 3.

I really don’t like the fact that these adventures are always on track to fight some great threat from step 1.

You might like Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden. It has fairly discreet tier 1, tier 2, and high 2-into-low-3 sections that can be run independently from each other.

If anything, it has the exact opposite problem in that the connective tissue between these sections can feel a little weak.

 

[THEMNGMNT]

For me, honestly, that's the worst design ever. The Deck of Many Things is a relic of a past where basically this forces you to play russian roulette with your character to advance in the adventure. Absolutely hateful, I would stop playing the adventure at that point.

The Deck of Many Things is certainly polarizing. I don't think it's a relic. It's an unusual piece of game design. Many people don't like it -- but some people do.

The high stakes, all-or-nothing aspect of the Deck has always intrigued me. But I could never find a way to introduce it without the risk of wrecking the characters or the campaign. You could mitigate the risk by literally stacking the Deck, but that goes against the spirit of the exercise.

So I decided to center an entire campaign around the Deck itself. The players knew from the very first session that their goal is to collect all the cards and draw from the Deck. All of the player characters have connections to an older adventuring group that was undone by drawing from the Deck. The promise and peril of the Deck is the central theme of the campaign. The draw will be the second-to-last event of the entire campaign. No matter what happens after that -- for good or ill -- the campaign will be finished and complete.

But "worst design ever" and "hateful"? Only time will tell if it creates a memorable experience at the table (as I hope) or not. We'll let the Deck decide.

 

[Lyxen]

The Deck of Many Things is certainly polarizing. I don't think it's a relic. It's an unusual piece of game design. Many people don't like it -- but some people do.

For sure, I was only stating my opinion.

The high stakes, all-or-nothing aspect of the Deck has always intrigued me. But I could never find a way to introduce it without the risk of wrecking the characters or the campaign. You could mitigate the risk by literally stacking the Deck, but that goes against the spirit of the exercise.

Yep, and as long as some wrecking risk remains...

But "worst design ever" and "hateful"? Only time will tell if it creates a memorable experience at the table (as I hope) or not. We'll let the Deck decide.

Well, I would not take the risk.