ways to increase BAB other other than leveling

[rushlight]

"The question was "can you?". The answer is "no"."

YOUR answer was "no". There are other interpretations available.

"...anyone wants to compare the Wish spell with a small +1 BAB increase, simply look at the Epic Prowess feat, an Epic feat mind you, and you'll know that a +1 BAB increase is far outside the power of Wish."

That is obviously false to anyone who has actually read the entire description of the Wish spell. No one yet has managed to comment on the fact that the spell spcifically allows for effects greater than those named, although with danger. You could quite legally Wish to be God, Wish to be the sole person left alive on the entire planet, or Wish to have the entire universe destroyed by a purple rodent. Of course, all of those Wishes would result in failure, usually with dire results to the caster, because they outright unbalance or destroy the game.

With a sympathetic GM who understands that not every player can make decisions based on books that haven't been written yet might allow a Wish for a +1 BAB to keep player enjoyment high. Especially since not a single person here can show how +1 BAB is unbalancing in the least.

So far, I've put forth rules and evidence that would support Wish doing this, and more proof that +1 BAB makes little relevance to an Epic level game. All the detractors have put forth is, "NO! You can't do that because it isn't specifically spelled out in the rules and you can't do something that isn't spelled out specifically!", or "That would require make(ing) my job too difficult, thus taking away any fun I have...", or just insults for not knowing that Epic levels would work this way and you should have obviously planned ahead.

Of course, the second quote is from someone here, in this thread. The others apparently called Ms Cleo and got the info on the ELH long before it's release and thus didn't need to do any adjusting.

Let's be fair, some of you don't think a player should be allowed to do something like this. That's fine, not everyone agrees. But the insults and derision is a bit thick from the "no" camp. One might draw conclusions on that, but that would be conjecture. So instead of insulting the original questioner, just state that you wouldn't allow a player to do this, and perhaps why. But please don't say "Wish can't do that" unless you can show that your copy of the Wish spell stops with the specific effects of Wish. Perhaps you might postulate that you wouldn't ALLOW Wish to do this, which is perfectly legal. But some of us WOULD allow Wish to do this which is also perfectly legal.

 

[kreynolds]

"YOUR answer was "no".

That's because the rules say "no".

"The question was "can you?". The answer is "no"."

That is obviously false to anyone who has actually read the entire description of the Wish spell.

I disagree. See below for more info.

No one yet has managed to comment on the fact that the spell spcifically allows for effects greater than those named, although with danger. You could quite legally Wish to be God, Wish to be the sole person left alive on the entire planet, or Wish to have the entire universe destroyed by a purple rodent. Of course, all of those Wishes would result in failure, usually with dire results to the caster, because they outright unbalance or destroy the game.

You know, a failed wish is a failed wish. Either you get it or you don't. If you wished yourself out of a dungeon, and that's all you said, not being specific, you may very well end up in another dungeon, because there are limitless answers to your wish. In the case of a +1 BAB, you're being very specific. Failure is failure. Besides, my argument is that it's far enough beyond the reach of the power of wish, that it will fail every time you try it.

Especially since not a single person here can show how +1 BAB is unbalancing in the least.

Funny, I thought I did that. *shrug*

So far, I've put forth rules and evidence that would support Wish doing this, and more proof that +1 BAB makes little relevance to an Epic level game.

ROTFLMAO Woho! Ohh, that's rich!!! LOL

All the detractors have put forth is, "NO! You can't do that because it isn't specifically spelled out in the rules and you can't do something that isn't spelled out specifically!",

Actually, I put forth my argument that Epic Prowess is far outside the power of Wish, but you didn't get it. Oh well.

"That would require make(ing) my job too difficult, thus taking away any fun I have...", or just insults for not knowing that Epic levels would work this way and you should have obviously planned ahead.

Of course, the second quote is from someone here, in this thread.

First, that quote is from one of my posts. You're taking it way out of context. Snipped on it's own like that, it has no meaning at all. Obviously, you don't have a clue as to why I posted that and what it means.

Secondly, learn to...

quote

...properly. Thanks.

The others apparently called Ms Cleo and got the info on the ELH long before it's release and thus didn't need to do any adjusting.

Heh. I didn't use my Epic Prowess argument until after the ELH hit the streets. Nice try, but try again.

Let's be fair, some of you don't think a player should be allowed to do something like this.

You're finally catching on.

But the insults and derision is a bit thick from the "no" camp.

Maybe, but I don't know. See previous post.

But please don't say "Wish can't do that" unless you can show that your copy of the Wish spell stops with the specific effects of Wish.

I already demonstrated my opinion as to why a +1 BAB increase is outside the power of wish.

Perhaps you might postulate that you wouldn't ALLOW Wish to do this, which is perfectly legal.

Yup. Wish is a rule-breaker, and it's meant to be that way. This is just one rule that is far outside the power of wish.

But some of us WOULD allow Wish to do this which is also perfectly legal.

Tell you what. If you, in character, can show me, the DM, how you can conceptualize and envision a +1 increase in your BAB, I might think about it. If you can do that without your wish sounding like crap, if you can do that without any metagame knowledge, if you can do that completely in character and in role-play, I might think about it.

Come to think of it, if you wish for a +1 BAB, you are doing so for the sole purpose of gaining an extra attack, and one of the possible results from wish could be that you suddenly, and quite permanently, lose a level. There. Now you can earn XP and level again, only this time, I would strongly suggest that you take a level in something that will bump up your BAB high enough. If one level drain isn't enough, two might do it as well.

So there ya' go. A +1 BAB increase for the purpose of gaining another attack via level/multiple level loss so that you may re-level your character in the proper way so as to gain your extra attack. And Wish did it.

See? I'm willing to work with ya.

 

[AvarielAvenger]

If multiclassed characters, or Clerics and Wizards can Wish to gain a point of BAB, then I'd say Fighter types should be able to Wish to gain levels of spellcasting. It's the same thing, after all. You're giving inherent bonuses of taking a level in a class through a magic spell.

You know, this thread is really pointless now. Like Kreynolds says, by the rules in the ELH, you cannot do what you want to do. By the rules, a Wish cannot give a point of BAB. You can change that in your game if you want, but realize it is a house rule.

 

[rushlight]

"By the rules, a Wish cannot give a point of BAB. You can change that in your game if you want, but realize it is a house rule."

That is what I don't understand. The Wish spell SAYS that you can Wish for greater effects, and that it just might be dangerous. It's up to the GM in question to decide what will be dangerous, what won't, and what exactly a Wish can do. It's not a house rule, it's a game rule.

To be perfectly honest it really doesn't matter to me if you get this point, so I agree this thread is becoming pointless. Some of you fail to understand exactly what Wish can do, but there's really not much more I can do about that except tell you to reread the spell. Sure, different GMs will allow it to do different things. But no matter what happens it's still within the bounds of Wish. Again, I could Wish that the entire universe was swamped in whip cream, and if the GM thought that might be funny or possible it would happen. That's not a house rule, that's a game rule. Wish can do "greater effects than these" and "it MIGHT be dangerous". Well, swamping the universe in whip cream qualifies as a "greater effect" and it obviously was dangerous, since we'd all drown. Perfectly legal. As for causing the character to lose levels, that's perfectly legal too. After all, the +1 BAB is a "greater effect" and it can be "dangerous". If that's the way you wanna handle that, then go for it.

As for +1 BAB being unbalanced, would you mind explaining how gaining an attack that will miss 95% (or more) of the time when fighting balanced CR monsters is unbalanced? Apparently I missed that point. Maybe you roll more natural 20s that usual or something...

Oh, and I'll quote how I like. If you are down to attacking my posting style (or perhaps you'll start with grammer and spelling next) then I suppose we should just end this. If you've got no more specific points related to the conversation, just say so.

 

[Xeriar]

If you wish for a point of BAB, I would rule that two of your wizard levels would switch to fighter levels, with no bonus feats.

Since I go by the 'use your best 20 levels' rule, it would be uneccesary anyway.

 

[doktorstick]

"As for +1 BAB being unbalanced, would you mind explaining how gaining an attack that will miss 95% (or more) of the time when fighting balanced CR monsters is unbalanced? Apparently I missed that point. Maybe you roll more natural 20s that usual or something...

This point was covered already. That fourth attack at +1 (without bonuses) may not matter now. But in 20 levels, that extra attack will be +21 (without bonuses). If it isn't such a big deal, then why fuss about it? Create a new spell that grants BABs and put it in a continuous item. Problem solved. That is within the scope of the rules.

/ds

 

[Crothian]

For those who missed it, this thread shows the legite way to get that extra +1 BAB.

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18253

EDIT: Okay, maybe not. But it's an interesting thought none the less.

 

[rushlight]

"This point was covered already. That fourth attack at +1 (without bonuses) may not matter now. But in 20 levels, that extra attack will be +21 (without bonuses). "

This is true. But had you actually read my reply to this point, you would have seen:

"Well, let's examine that. Say our guy gets his +1 BAB and advances to level 41 (20 levels from now). I don't know the detals of character so I'll make some reasonable assumptions. He probably had a dex of around 22 at 21st level. Assume he increased his dex at every chance (every other epic level I believe). That gives him a bonus of +11. He's probably got a +5 (it might go higher in the ELH, I'm not sure). Let's not forget his "Epic bonus" to hit of +10. Let's see, that's +1 BAB (the gimme), +11 dex, +10 Epic bonus, and +5 weapon. Let's give him a +20 "circumstance" bonus to cover whatever else might be going on. That's a final attack bonus of +47 to attack, assuming my public school math holds up. Alright, that's alot. Let's see what that can do. Looking through the ELH I found a monster comparably even to a 41st level party: the Mature Adult Prismatic Dragon with a CR of 43. A few higher but close enough. It has an AC of 71! That means our massive attack of +47 still needs a roll of 20 to even have a chance! (Assuming of course that you play natural 20 always hits. If you don't then you still missed, having only an attack of 67...) "

So you can see that the argument that in 20 more levels it makes a difference. It doesn't, because while you gain 20 levels of more power, the monsters you should be fighting have also gained 20 levels or more of power. And thus your 4th iterative attack will still miss 95% of the time, or more. The argument that gaining levels will allow the +1 to become relevant is spurious logic, and false. When your guy is 180th level, and has a 4th attack of +81 or so, the monsters you'll be fighting will probably have an AC of 120 or so... That's because the scaling of the CRs works very well. Reguardless of your level, the first attack is your most powerful. Those attacks that follow become less and less useful, until your last attack is almost asured to miss.

"If it isn't such a big deal, then why fuss about it? "

Good question. To tell the truth, I would never do this, and as a GM I would point out that it makes almost no difference at all to the game, and thus not worth 5000 XP. Players don't always do what makes sense though, and really a GM should usually try to accomodate his players if it doesn't affect game balance. This is just personal opinion, but I don't think a GM should shoot down an idea just because it causes them more work or makes things different that the exact letter of the book. Sometimes it's OK to just toss out the books and oblige a player. Especially when doing so makes no difference to the game.


Oh, and I forgot to give an example as to how to word the Wish.

As long as I didn't have a GM who was just going to hose me because I was making a Wish that wasn't on the approved list I'd word it this way:

I Wish I my innate ability to fight was better so that I would be good enough to get more strikes in during combat.

Now, sure you could say that this gives you some sort of additional bonus to attack as opposed to BAB, but BAB is the only "innate" attacking ability which doesn't change with weapon, circumstance, or method of attack (ranged vs melee).

Besides, you COULD just reward the Wish "I Wish I was smarter!" with an extra spell point as opposed to the +1 to INT. Obviously the INT bonus is the one sought, just like the BAB bonus is the one sought in tthe previous Wish.

 

[doktorstick]

This is true. But had you actually read my reply to this point, you would have seen:

I did recall that as I was typing, but was already committed to posting. I'm not sure that characters in Epic Level campaigns will, in the majority of the time, be fighting equally powerful creatures. In the admittedly few high-level campaigns I have been involved in, there was the occassional uber-powerful creature or mastermind, but most of the time we were overcoming horrid traps, fighting at severe disadvantages, or mobs of lower-level villians. The encounters still ranged from moderate-to-difficult, but that 4th attack would be worth a lot more in the campaigns I have participated in.

/ds

 

[jontherev]

I have yet to see anyone reply to myself and several other posters who have asked how in the world one could word a wish without metagaming in order to gain a bab +1. Consider that a challenge. Wishing for 1 more attack would not do it, as that would be metagaming...so you just happened to wish this when your bab was only 1 away from another attack? How in the world would your pc know this? Yeah right. More likely, you would receive a monk's belt or boots of speed...or a mean dm might haste you for a limited time period and then take it away for good.

Now, if you actually wished for a +1 bab, then you just wasted 5k exp, as your god has no idea what you just wished for. Either that, or he might give you a +1 wisdom or intelligence so that you make more sense next time...if you are lucky.

Sorry, but I don't see anyway to do this in-game without metagaming. Therefore, you cannot wish for a +1 bab. As kreynolds said (paraphrased due to laziness), convince us that you can do this w/o metagaming, and then we will talk about this possibility more.

However, if you have a dm and a group who just plays for fun and doesn't make roleplaying a high priority (which is fine, if that's what you like...I'm not telling anyone how to play the GAME), then sure, you could wish for a +1 bab.

As I said before, in this situation, just let the player rewrite his pc based upon the new rules. I don't what the big problem is. But when all the books are out, no more changing stuff around. As long as the changes are approved by the DM, it's all good right?