ways to increase BAB other other than leveling

[rushlight]

"I have yet to see anyone reply to myself and several other posters who have asked how in the world one could word a wish without metagaming in order to gain a bab +1."

Then you apparently didn't read my last post. It read:

"As long as I didn't have a GM who was just going to hose me because I was making a Wish that wasn't on the approved list I'd word it this way:

I Wish I my innate ability to fight was better so that I would be good enough to get more strikes in during combat.

Now, sure you could say that this gives you some sort of additional bonus to attack as opposed to BAB, but BAB is the only "innate" attacking ability which doesn't change with weapon, circumstance, or method of attack (ranged vs melee).

Besides, you COULD just reward the Wish "I Wish I was smarter!" with an extra skill point as opposed to the +1 to INT. Obviously the INT bonus is the one sought, just like the BAB bonus is the one sought in tthe previous Wish."

I think that would cover it right nicely.

Doc posted: "In the admittedly few high-level campaigns I have been involved in, there was the occassional uber-powerful creature or mastermind, but most of the time we were overcoming horrid traps, fighting at severe disadvantages, or mobs of lower-level villians. "

Were I the GM of that game I probably would agree with you. Every GM is responsible for maintaining game balance and keeping fun high. Not every solution is right for every game.

I guess the reason I keep coming back to this thread is because I believe that the Wish solution is POSSIBLE (legally speaking) but not necessarily appropriate to every game. This differs from the others who insist it's a house rule or not legal under the rules. They haven't apparently actually read the spell, but yet the feel the need to criticize others for their game decisions. So I had to address that.

 

[Gromm]

It is his game, and he is free to do what he likes. However, he choose to ask for other people's opinions. Unless you use rule zero, BAB can not be increased. However, if rule zero is assumed to always be used it makes this forum useless.

Aint that the F-ing truth. I often wonder why some people (not neccessarily this thread), ask questions of rules. Once they hear the answer they raise a stink and say its not fair and yadda-yadda- yadda and then Rule 0 it. So why even ask in the first place if you had your heart set on chaging the rules to what you wanted them to be? The point of this forum is to ask how the rules work, not to bitch and moan when the rules don't work the way you want them too.

As far as the whole insult issue, I've been reading. Its Kreynolds.... I mean comon. If you take him personally you'll probably end up jumping off the Brooklyn bridge or something. Its just the way he is, don't take it to heart just get used to it (I don't know how many times hes insulted me now).

The simplest solution is to allow the Wish to drop him a level in one of his existing classes (seems well within the power of wish to use it to screw yourself over). If he wants the fricken BAB THAT badly, then by all means shoot yourself in the foot for the thing. If not then tuff tittie and move on with your life, if you really wanted to be super archer you'd make a pure fighter. Multiclassing is great and all, but to be the best swordsman, archer, axe thrower, or whatever you go with fighter. Kinda like if you want to be a master spell caster you go straight Sor or Wiz, just the way it works. Arcane archers are neat and all, but near as I can figure it should have been pretty easy to get enough BAB for that extra attack if you wanted it that badly.

Oh and for those who haven't figured it out... Wish DOES have a limit on its power. You can't wish yourself to become say a god, no matter how "well worded" it is. This came up before in some other issue a while back where someone tried to be smart and wish for something beyond Wish's power. Its a 9th level spell, but you can't use it to say cast Energy Drain. Why? Because it can't replicate 9th level spells. I don't care if it costs XP or not, it can't do it. Says so right in the book. You can wish to do all kinds of things outside of the range of wish, if you word it poorly you'll probably die. If you word it perfectly, nothing will happen.

Lets look at the possible wording of this wish anyway:
"I wish I had another point of BAB" ummm no.
"I wish I had taken a fighter level instead of a mage level" Nope.
"I wish I had spent more time training in martial combat instead of wizardly arts." Hey good idea, but unfortunately wish can't alter time last I looked so its beyond the ability of Wish- granted it could probably make you lose a wizard level but even wording that would be pretty rough.

So just kill him and help the guy out.

 

[Numion]

Wouldn't it be easiest to just give him the extra attack without worrying too much about the BAB? That shouldn't ruin out the game for anyone, and is an easy fix.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

"Well, let's examine that. Say our guy gets his +1 BAB and advances to level 41 (20 levels from now). I don't know the detals of character so I'll make some reasonable assumptions. He probably had a dex of around 22 at 21st level. Assume he increased his dex at every chance (every other epic level I believe). That gives him a bonus of +11. He's probably got a +5 (it might go higher in the ELH, I'm not sure). Let's not forget his "Epic bonus" to hit of +10. Let's see, that's +1 BAB (the gimme), +11 dex, +10 Epic bonus, and +5 weapon. Let's give him a +20 "circumstance" bonus to cover whatever else might be going on. That's a final attack bonus of +47 to attack, assuming my public school math holds up. Alright, that's alot. Let's see what that can do. Looking through the ELH I found a monster comparably even to a 41st level party: the Mature Adult Prismatic Dragon with a CR of 43. A few higher but close enough. It has an AC of 71! That means our massive attack of +47 still needs a roll of 20 to even have a chance! (Assuming of course that you play natural 20 always hits. If you don't then you still missed, having only an attack of 67...) "

Ahh, nope, the guy is an arcane archer, they are VERY DEADLY, It's gonna look more like this:

From 21st level, last attack at.................................... +1
Gain levels to 41st.................................................... +10
Dex 44 (22, +12 gloves, +5 inherent, +5 level advance).. +17
Weapon Focus........................................................... +1
Epic Weapon Focus.................................................... +2
Epic Prowess x5 (anywhere from 3 to 7 if he's smart) .... +5
Bow +10................................................................... +10
and last but not least
Enchant Arrow (class ability, 31st level Arcane Archer)... +16

By the way, the magic items I used add up to 4.2 million gold, he has over 14 million total to work with, I'm sure he could come up with some other epic items giving insight or divine bonuses too....

Let's add it up
1+10+17+1+2+5+10+16 = +62

Against AC 71, thats a 60% chance to-hit with that last attack. And what is that dragon's younger brother gonna do when he finds out your group just killed his older brother. Adult prismatic dragon, CR 39, AC 64..... *THOINK* *THOINK* *THOINK* *THOINK*, 4 well placed arrows up that dragon's arse....

I guess that last attack IS important afterall......

 

[Vaxalon]

What I would like to know is how this character would phrase the wish to achieve the metagame result.

 

[Will]

Let's see, magic that affects BAB...

Tenser's Transformation (+1 BAB per 2 caster levels, among other things, which can grant extra attacks)
Divine Power (BAB as that of a fighter of your total level)

So there are at least in game things you can point to and say 'I want something like that'.

It's not hard to imagine a Wish phrased as 'I want to be better in combat'.

Consider +1 Strength. It grants something like +.5 melee attacks (0 or 1, depending), and +1 damage.
+1 BAB grants +1 on melee and ranged, and an extra attack. A little more powerful... maybe require two wishes, or some extra 'oomph'.

As for changing classes, given that magic already can play with class effects (Two spells mentioned above, frex), it wouldn't be hard to imagine requesting 'I wish I was more knowledgeable in military arts than magical arts', or even 'I wish I had the benefit of a year of combat training rather than the year I spent studying magic.'

Sum 'balance' effect: Loss of 5k XP for being effectively the same rough power of character.

That _really_ seems like a nonissue to me. 5k is a lot to pay to rearrange a character.

As for justification... the game mechanics are there to serve the game. If I go into a game expecting one thing and getting another, I think adjusting things are warranted.

If I want a quick and nimble forest fighter and went with ranger, maybe I discover down the road that it's _nothing_ like I wanted. I could either throw out my concept and rework it around the character, get rid of the character and bring in a new one, or rewrite the character as, perhaps, a Rog/Ftr.

Again, other than letting the game progress smoothly, I don't see the problem. I mean, if the game is resting on the fact the character is a ranger, changing the class would screw things up. OTOH, I imagine that if the player was startled or dismayed by how rangers feel in 3e, the DM has failed to communicate what's going on.

-=Will

 

[jontherev]

"I have yet to see anyone reply to myself and several other posters who have asked how in the world one could word a wish without metagaming in order to gain a bab +1."

Then you apparently didn't read my last post. It read:

"As long as I didn't have a GM who was just going to hose me because I was making a Wish that wasn't on the approved list I'd word it this way:

I Wish I my innate ability to fight was better so that I would be good enough to get more strikes in during combat.

Now, sure you could say that this gives you some sort of additional bonus to attack as opposed to BAB, but BAB is the only "innate" attacking ability which doesn't change with weapon, circumstance, or method of attack (ranged vs melee).

Besides, you COULD just reward the Wish "I Wish I was smarter!" with an extra skill point as opposed to the +1 to INT. Obviously the INT bonus is the one sought, just like the BAB bonus is the one sought in tthe previous Wish."

I think that would cover it right nicely.

Actually, yes, I missed your last post, amidst the flames in this thread. But now that I read it, it wouldn't have changed my post. BAB is definitely NOT an innate bonus. BAB comes from the training from your class. If it was innate, then some wizards would get the bab as a fighter, simply because they were "born" with an innate fighting ability.

Also, I am rather lenient when it comes to wish, so please don't lump me into some category as a DM trying to hose you. I would allow wishing for feats, as long as you have the prereq., it makes sense for your pc, AND you word it somewhat well. The fact is, I simply disagree with you.

Your last point is lost on me. 3E defines that INT increases your skill points, I'll give you that. But personally, I would not screw over a player like this, by being sly and telling him he suddenly knows how to decipher scripts slightly better...but over all he doesn't feel any smarter. I'm not that strict. I just think wishing for bab smells like metagaming. So far, no one has even come close to changing my mind on that issue.

As for your wish above, I would probably give you a +1 unnamed or insight bonus to all attacks. After all, the more often you hit, the more strikes you get in. Quite fair I think, considering Weapon Focus only gives +1 to attack with ONE weapon. However, I'd probably do something to balance this out, like alter your skin color or something humourous like that.

 

[kreynolds]

As for +1 BAB being unbalanced, would you mind explaining how gaining an attack that will miss 95% (or more) of the time when fighting balanced CR monsters is unbalanced? Apparently I missed that point. Maybe you roll more natural 20s that usual or something...

Tell you what. If you wanna whip up a chart that details a cheaper cost for purchasing a feat based on how crappy your BAB is, go for it. That's basically what you wanna do, and it's a bad idea. Look at it like this:

If your BAB is +9/+4, then yeah, an additional +1 technically isn't a big deal, right? After all, if would only net you +10/+5, which is still only two attacks. However, if your BAB is already +10/+5, well now, an additional +1 is a much bigger deal, as it nets you +11/+6/+1. Three attacks for the same cost. Now, you get yet another +1 increase, and that will net you +12/+7/+2. Technically, not a big deal, right? Wrong. With each increase, every single one of your attacks is improved upon. Oh sure, your last crappy +2 attack is still crappy, even if increased again, but even if you have three attacks per round, and your last attack is only at +2, then the cost should be low. However, that +1 BAB increase doesn't just increase your last attack. It increases your primary as well, which is now +13.

Your argument of a small cost for a small increase doesn't sit well with me, primarly because the benefit of the +1 increase, though pretty small on the low end (last attack), it's really damn good on the high end (first attack). Remember, your fast attack is what's important. That's the one that counts. That's the one that makes the difference. The rest are just icing on the cake. But the power of an increase in your BAB isn't about getting that extra attack, or even improving you last attack. That increase is all about improving your first attack, so that your chances of missing are almost nil.

Oh, and I'll quote how I like. If you are down to attacking my posting style (or perhaps you'll start with grammer and spelling next) then I suppose we should just end this.

First of all, I likely won't poke you about your grammer or spelling because I often make those mistakes myself. When I do poke someone about it, which I haven't with you, it's in jest, and obviously so. When I'm serious, it's because somebody's post was about as readable as a preschooler's.

Secondly, I wasn't attacking your posting style. I was just pointing out that your posting style is irritating as hell to read. The system is there to help make your posts readable. I was just hoping that you would use it. It really does make it easier to read.

If you've got no more specific points related to the conversation, just say so.

I believe I just added to the conversation, and did so in my previous post as well. Disappointed?

 

[apsuman]

Against better judgement, I am going to post again.

First, "The question can you increase your BAB?"

I believe the answer is no. I believe that wishes are powerful and can do more than listed in the description. I believe this would be beyond the power of a wish. Further I belive that most other players are on this side with me (although I am wrong a lot).

Also, if adding it is not really going to amke that much of a difference, then not adding it should also not make that much of a difference. Those in favor of allowing a wish (or something) to accomplish this are advocating a large and significant change to the system, the burden is on them to advance their case, not for use (on the other side) to copitulate.

Adding +1 to BAB is big, not only does it give you extra attacks, it makes the existing attacks better. So that +1 misses 95% of the time, the first second, and third all hit 5% more of the time. Also, even if at level 41 a +67 misses 95% of the time, you can have a wicked empowered cats grace offering you a +30 to your DEX for an additonal +15 to hit and you still eft out other epic bonuses available.

The fact that protagonists are still posting means they are still trying to get some type of approval from the members of this board. Give it up use rule zero -- we will never know.

I am not trying to be the great compromiser, but I offered two solutions and nobody flamed me and nobody thanked me, basically I thought they were ignored.

First[\B] calculate BAB fractionally, while not in the rules, I think this is the least offensive way to achieve your ends. It also might not work.

Second[\B], I offered a feat that allows characters to gain the extra attack one having one less BAB than required. I like this as it requires the character to spend a feat and does not essentially punish every other character by not giving them something.

g!

 

[kreynolds]

I am not trying to be the great compromiser, but I offered two solutions and nobody flamed me and nobody thanked me, basically I thought they were ignored.

I didn't ignore your suggestions. No offense, but I just didn't find them appealing. I figured, why tell you that I don't like them if I don't also offer a way to make them better. Makes sense, right?

The first one might work though. I'm just not all fired up to find out.