D&D 5E We have a Legends and Lore this week

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
Falling Icicle said:
This rule applies whether you're in danger or not. All you have to be is out in the wilderness, and no full HP for you. So yes, it does apply to "fun" and "easy" camping trips just as much as it does to soldiers in trenches.
Do we really need the rules to specifically spell things out that far? "You heal X when in the wilderness (see page XX for the rules definition of Wilderness)" . Do DM's really need that much hand holding?
If a word is being used in a context that is not normal, it should be spelled out, yes. If a rule just says "wilderness", and it's not game terminology, and nothing more is explained as to what is meant by that, I'm going to use the normal interpretation of that word.

Writing game rules in such a way where things are confusing because you're assuming people can guess what you're thinking is, in my opinion, bad writing. If you don't mean "wilderness", then either use a different word (or phrase), or explain what you mean, so that "wilderness" at least becomes pseudo game terminology. That's fairly basic, in my opinion. As always, play what you like :)
 

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pemerton

Legend
I fear, though, that the same players who adopt the 15mAD approach will seamlessly adjust. After all, their logic remains the same: there's no cost to the players in doing so, but a potentially nasty consequence for going on at less than 100%.
I have faced such a group, once, though they weren't quite so pathological - they made camp in the wilderness, having taken some wounds and used most of their spells. During the night, they faced a random encounter, meaning they lost a few more hit points and used up some of their spells (and, it being 3e, the Clerics thus used up some of their spell slots from the next day). As a consequence of which, they insisted on staying put for a full day and night, so they didn't have to proceed while wounded and low on spells.

After that, I always made sure they had easy access to a wand of cure light wounds. It's a horrible piece of equipment, and a bad fix for the issue, and something I'm not at all sorry to see go... except that giving them that easy access made the game flow much more smoothly, because I didn't have to constantly fight their wish not to proceed at less than 100%.
I don't think that these players are pathological. They have noted (i) that D&D has resource-gaming elements to it, but that (ii) ingame time is not, by default, a resource, and hence (iii) it costs them nothing to trade ingame time to maximise their access to the resources, like spells and hit points, that really do matter to action resolution.

If you look at a game like Burning Wheel, that tries to build resting time into the system, you notice a couple of things: first, ingame time is a resource, because instead of spending it healing you can spend in training; second, players have an incentive to engage challenges at less than full health because, due to the way the BW advancement system works (it cares about the actual degree of mechanical challenge you face, but doesn't care whether you win or lose at that challenge), it can be easier to get the experience you need to advance if you are wounded (and hence challenges are, by default, more difficult).

That's a game at the gritty end of the spectrum. Marvel Heroic RP, at the other end, still draws a distinction between Action Scenes and Transition scenes, and there are things you can do in one sort of scene and things you can do in another sort of scene (including different rules for recovery in each sort of scene).

I think it's bad game design simply to rely on players' aesthetic sensibility to give them a reason to treat ingame time as a meaningful resource if nothing in the mechanics makes it so.

Nobody is realistically going to delve half-way though the "Depths of Destruction" only to say "oh wait, we're too beat up, time to head home" then wait a week or more to fully heal, and then head back, having to basically clear the dungeon all over again, and risking losing any possible hidden treasure if it abandoned by it's occupants.
Returning to town generally has a large minimum time requirement and the PCs risk events occurring in their absence to which they can't respond, but once there hp are gained relatively quickly and reliably. Staying in the field generally has a low minimum time requirement and the PCs can be more responsive to local events, but the hp are gained more slowly and less reliably due to possibility of disruptions. On average neither of those should be the "right" choice
What I see in both these cases is that the GM is making ingame time into a resource in a way which is not at all transparent to the players. Like two identical corridors, one to the left and the other to the right, I don't really see meaningful choice here.

Of course particular scenarios might be different - eg the PCs learn from an oracle that they are on a clock. But in the typical Gygaxian AD&D module there is no data that the player can gather via skillful play that will tell them how much time they have, and what the costs are in terms of loot foregone if they rest. Furthermore, the XP system makes quite a difference here: in Gygaxian AD&D, for instance, missing out on loot is a big deal XP-wise and extra reinforcement adversely affect the fight-to-XP ratio, whereas in 2nd ed AD&D missing out on loot isn't as big a deal, and extra combats due to reinforcements are a boost to XP rather than a drag upon XP.

the conditions should change the rate of recovery, and maybe even your condition should change your rate of recovery. So, as a suggestion for the most basic (and gritty) of rules, the party can rest in a poor, average or good environment; in a poor environment you don't recover any hp but you do get spells and such, in an average environment you recover 1hp/level and in a good environment you recover 2hp/level.
Resource recovery needs to work on a unified timeline. It doesn't matter if it takes a minute between fights or a month, the game will only play in a consistent manner if refilling HPs, refilling spells, and refilling other "daily" abilities works at the same rate.
I very much agree with Kinak here. Hit points are a fighter's main "daily" resource. Putting them on a different clock from the casters is a recipe for balance breakdown. It also increases the pressure on the cleric to be a healer, if spells come back more quickly than hit points and hence speed up the overall recovery process (in my experience this was certainly the default in classic D&D play).
 

Hussar

Legend
Actually, I think Mearls was pretty clear. He specifically stated that you get half hp from rest "in a dungeon or the outdoors." In order to regain full hp, you need to "take refuge in a comfortable place, like a tavern or other point of civilization." He never mentioned danger as having anything to do with it. It's all about "comfort."



It's always better for the rules to be as clear as possible. Still, I would prefer that this rule not even exist. Rest should be rest, as it was in previous editions. Then you don't need to spell out exceptions, since there wouldn't be a rule that needed to have exceptions in the first place.

Problem is, it wasn't actually that clear in other editions when rest actually counted. After all, in 3e there is significant difference in healing rates between resting outdoors and resting in a bed in a house (4 times healing speed). So, it's not like this is totally unprecedented.

But, this is a bit besides my point. These articles are not rules. They are the starting points for rules. Starting down the rules lawyering road at this point is very premature.
 

urLordy

First Post
These articles are not rules. They are the starting points for rules. Starting down the rules lawyering road at this point is very premature.
I think you're right about the risk of assumptions. Which leaves us with the kind of discussion that goes: Which story should be the foundation for resting rules: should it be a) comfort, b) danger levels, or c) purely location-based?(Obviously, this is only directed to those who focus on the story/in-game aspect). Edit: Use rules that empower the DM to decide (or not), see below...
 
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urLordy

First Post
Hey, I know! Make a Con check vs DC to get a good rest, with situational modifiers.

For a standard bed rest in the city, automatic success and no need to roll.

But have an assassin attack you in your room in the middle of the night, and your wounds re-open from the fight's exertion, then make a DC check to avoid losing the benefits of a day's rest.

This could be ignored for some campaigns or used appropriately in story-focused games, such as:
- resting to max hit points on a fun and easy camping trip in the wilderness
- an uber-tough mountain dwarf ranger resting to max hit points while sleeping on a boulder
- clearing a dungeon, barring the one entrance, and sleeping to max hp on the slain villian's master bed
 

VinylTap

First Post
Won't something have to be done about monster balance? If one healing extreme turns on per encounter resource management , and one extreme bends things towards a full adventuring day, you'll have to do some sort of re-balancing to stop the 'encounter based healing systems' from being a cake walk? Will it be as easy as adding some CR to your encounters?
 

Cyberen

First Post
Won't something have to be done about monster balance? If one healing extreme turns on per encounter resource management , and one extreme bends things towards a full adventuring day, you'll have to do some sort of re-balancing to stop the 'encounter based healing systems' from being a cake walk? Will it be as easy as adding some CR to your encounters?

Seems like a feature to me : if you play "high octane, cinematic play" (with encounter refresh) then party-level encounters are a cakewalk and level+X is challenging. XP flow fast, which seems appropriate.
If you play gritty, and slow refresh the party has to be careful which fights to pick, and levelling is slower.
Nice !
 

VinylTap

First Post
Seems like a feature to me : if you play "high octane, cinematic play" (with encounter refresh) then party-level encounters are a cakewalk and level+X is challenging. XP flow fast, which seems appropriate.
If you play gritty, and slow refresh the party has to be careful which fights to pick, and levelling is slower.
Nice !

Well when you put it like that... yeah, it does make a lot of sense ;)
 

delericho

Legend
Won't something have to be done about monster balance? If one healing extreme turns on per encounter resource management , and one extreme bends things towards a full adventuring day, you'll have to do some sort of re-balancing to stop the 'encounter based healing systems' from being a cake walk? Will it be as easy as adding some CR to your encounters?

A few months ago, Mike talked about setting an XP budget for monsters per 'day' - meaning that you could have one big encounter in the day or four little ones, and either way the total budget would remain the same*. If the game switches to per-encounter management, presumably the change will be to change the budget from per 'day' to per 'encounter'.

Although, actually, it should be per "refresh period" - whenever the PCs replenish their abilities, the budget also refreshes; and the DM should set things up so that they're usually close to the budget (whether slightly over or slightly under) before they seek to refresh.

* In fairness, I should probably note that this has issues all of its own, because an encounter with 4 ogres is probably easier than 4 encounters each with 1 ogre (because the wizard can usually affect more than one with his fireball but probably doesn't have four fireballs to throw around). But that's another discussion for another time.
 


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