D&D 5E We Would Hate A BG3 Campaign

[Maxperson]

So hypothetically, would you accept a game where the players gave you a list of 100 monsters you could use and you can never use anything else? If not, why do you feel the same is fair in return?

That's not how the game of D&D is run. Just because the rules go one way doesn't make that the primary focus of the curation. The primary focus remains the artistic vision.

Hypothetically, though, if someone created a game called Boringville and made a hard rule that even GMs couldn't break that only the 100 monsters provided could be used, I would accept that. I wouldn't run it or play in it on a consistent basis, but I would accept it.

Obviously, the question is absurd but most of this discussion is. The fact that DMs can define the parameters for the other players but are unrestricted themselves is a power dynamics issue masquerading as an aesthetic one. And that isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think it's fair to be honest about it.

There is no masquerade. The power dynamic is right out in the open in both the PHB and the DMG. The aesthetic is a completely different thing.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Absolutely could. Same with class selection. If someone wants to play a warlock and gets told "Oh, we're playing a low magic so you can only pick from half the classes in the game" then, isn't that person entitled to go "Cool, good luck, game isn't for me" and leave?

Well, yes that person could, and should, if it's that much of an issue for them. Not understanding what the problem is here?

Or, y'know, me being an abashed gnome fan, if I'm told I can't play a gnome and have to suffer halflings or worse, kender, I'm skeleton "Just walk out" meme out of that one

lolz

 

[Mecheon]

It makes sense to me. Do wizards turn into dragon people and walk around town? Very, very unlikely. Would a druid turn into a wolf in town or a domestic dog? Unlikely to just decide to waltz around as a wolf likely to be attacked. Same with the wizard as a dragon person. Just because folks can shapechange doesn't mean that everyone is just going to blithely ignore every monster that comes to town because it might possibly, maybe, sometimes be a shapechanged friend.

Ehhh, I'm gonna.... Doubt on that one Max if only due to the Sights I've Seen.

This may be because my brain is tainted by Warcraft but you'd better believe there were plenty of druids just longuing around as bears, folks using clothing to give themselves horns and dragon wings to appear as demons or shapeshifted dragons, and so, so many people using every trick on the book to take the appearances of normally hostile mobs to play as them in town, and quite often a lot of them were defended. The things that were attack on sight were the group cosplaying as either the local crime gang or the religions hardliners, due to history, which says a lot where the group you're at active war with was more worth defending than the local crazy cult. Scarlet Crusaders, man....

My favourite was a druid who turned into a tree and pretended to be a door for a doorless house

Dragon people look like monsters and would be attacked in towns in a setting that doesn't have them as a race, so a player wanting to play a unique dragonborn PC would just be causing disruption to the game if allowed to do so.

In something like FR were half-dragons and all sorts exist, I kind of doubt it. Lizardmen exist and they get along generally well enough for trading, there is just a dragon god who exists openly. We in our dragon-less world have plenty of tales of dragons taking human form and ending up in relationships with people, or other shapeshifting beings. Plus, in our only one sapient species world, folks want to absolutely just [REDACTED] the Creature from the Black Lagoon to the point that Shape of Water exists

If a Dragonborn just walked into town there would be a non-zero amount of people who would be a bit more interested in taking the Dragonborn for a night on the town, if you catch my drift.

 

[Oofta]

Absolutely could. Same with class selection. If someone wants to play a warlock and gets told "Oh, we're playing a low magic so you can only pick from half the classes in the game" then, isn't that person entitled to go "Cool, good luck, game isn't for me" and leave?

Or, y'know, me being an abashed gnome fan, if I'm told I can't play a gnome and have to suffer halflings or worse, kender, I'm skeleton "Just walk out" meme out of that one


Not PHBs. Rakasta showed up in Dragon and Red Steel, Catfolk were Races of the Wild

I had a guy leave my campaign because of my "no evil" rule. It wasn't a big deal, I just wasn't running the game he wanted. I still had a full table for my next session.

 

[Oofta]

Is a cat person all it takes for it to be a game you don't want? Animal people have been in this game since day 1 with the original pig orcs, and gnolls became hyena people, cynocephs (dog-headed people) are more medievally accurate than halflings or orcs even existing, and 'cat person' is a massive archetype that's well rooted in fantasy to the point I didn't even bring in Warcraft's one (both the 'actually known about' Saberon and the 'rolled out every new race hopeful for the past 20 years' Tigon)

Hypothetically, let's say I've been okay with your stuff in the past. But I have a friend, and they did not give any concern about D&D until I told them that Tabaxi exists and suddenly, hey, they want to play. I want to play with my friend, and I'd love to invite them to you, but your hard stance on what, to us, seems a minor thing, given D&D's long and noted history of cat people, is an insurmountable barrier. Well, to play with my friend, I'm leaving your game and seeking one elsewhere, because they want to play tabaxi, and I want to play with them. I can't play your game and play with them, so that's just, potentially breaking up that group.


D&D's a social game, this is hardly something that's debatable. A DM can design the fanciest world they want, but if they can't get players interested in playing it, it doesn't matter.

LOL, when I've opened up seats for new players I'm turning people away. Getting players is the least of my concerns.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

We're all in hypotheticals in this situation, let's be honest. Has anyone requested Dragonborn in the dragonborn-denying games, given that Dragonborn are a notoriously underpowered race that you only ever play for flavour?


Playable stats in every edition except Basic and 4E in some form of another

Rakasta and Tabaxi for the original two (plus the. many, many, many Rakasta variants in Dragon), Catfolk in 3E as a generic option, and Tabaxi/Leonin now (Plus an official unofficial Rakasta by the original Mystara crew)

Dragonborn are at least new enough (I'd. Personally argue they're the generic-fication of Dragonkin and Draconians) that I can see that restraint but Tabaxi are downright legacy

4e does have shifters, the razor claw version is pretty much a Tabaxi, though they don't explicitly get super fast climbing like the 5e version. There's also the Cat Hengeyokai which DOES get super climb speed. Admittedly, both of these races also have a human form, but you could definitely play with that flavor. It is a bit weird that 4e doesn't even have a monster tabaxi though...

 

[mamba]

This may be because my brain is tainted by Warcraft but you'd better believe there were plenty of druids just longuing around as bears, folks using clothing to give themselves horns and dragon wings to appear as demons or shapeshifted dragons, and so, so many people using every trick on the book to take the appearances of normally hostile mobs to play as them in town, and quite often a lot of them were defended.

yeah, I'd say that is a WoW thing. You know everything is a human player or an NPC, nothing is ever anything else. If your dragonborn only walks around town on Halloween, they would probably also be ok, any other day...

 

[Maxperson]

Ehhh, I'm gonna.... Doubt on that one Max if only due to the Sights I've Seen.

This may be because my brain is tainted by Warcraft but you'd better believe there were plenty of druids just longuing around as bears, folks using clothing to give themselves horns and dragon wings to appear as demons or shapeshifted dragons, and so, so many people using every trick on the book to take the appearances of normally hostile mobs to play as them in town, and quite often a lot of them were defended. The things that were attack on sight were the group cosplaying as either the local crime gang or the religions hardliners, due to history, which says a lot where the group you're at active war with was more worth defending than the local crazy cult. Scarlet Crusaders, man....

Warcraft is an aberration caused by being a videogame. In the typical D&D setting there aren't that many druids and the ones that there are don't typically hang around cities, and when they do go to a city, they aren't going to be a dangerous predator that townsfolk will kill.

But sure, if a setting was like WoW and there were tons of epic and legendary items, races of freaky appearance, and druids all over in various forms, that would be an exception to what I am saying.

My favourite was a druid who turned into a tree and pretended to be a door for a doorless house

Sounds pretty cool.

In something like FR were half-dragons and all sorts exist, I kind of doubt it. Lizardmen exist and they get along generally well enough for trading, there is just a dragon god who exists openly. We in our dragon-less world have plenty of tales of dragons taking human form and ending up in relationships with people, or other shapeshifting beings. Plus, in our only one sapient species world, folks want to absolutely just [REDACTED] the Creature from the Black Lagoon to the point that Shape of Water exists

This is why I said common to a setting. In a place near where the Saurial live, dinosaur people might not be unusual or feared. Two countries over the vast majority of people would never even have heard of them, let alone seen one. Two different local settings withing the FR setting. Same with lizard men. They aren't going to be common as trading partners in most places, or even seen in many places.

Those races that are accepted locally very likely at one point weren't and were feared or even killed. Aaaand, just because a village is okay with the local lizard men, doesn't mean that a dragon person who spits acid isn't going to be feared as a monster. For every humanoid race that is accepted, there are like 50 monsters that will kill you, many of which look similar to a friendly race. The unique dragon born in a setting where dragon born don't exist will likely end up dead right quick or be a disruption to the game for a long, long time.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That's not how the game of D&D is run. Just because the rules go one way doesn't make that the primary focus of the curation. The primary focus remains the artistic vision.

Hypothetically, though, if someone created a game called Boringville and made a hard rule that even GMs couldn't break that only the 100 monsters provided could be used, I would accept that. I wouldn't run it or play in it on a consistent basis, but I would accept it.

There is no masquerade. The power dynamic is right out in the open in both the PHB and the DMG. The aesthetic is a completely different thing.

So, the answer is 'It is just so', and @Remathilis proposition is badwrongfun ('Boringville'). I mean, OK, you "would accept it", but you don't want to run or play it. I think it's pretty plain that Remathilis is correct, this is purely a power dynamics thing.

 

[Maxperson]

So, the answer is 'It is just so', and @Remathilis proposition is badwrongfun ('Boringville'). I mean, OK, you "would accept it", but you don't want to run or play it.

It's not badwrongfun. It's not rightfun for me. Being limited to the same monsters all the time would be booooring to me as both a player and a DM.

I think it's pretty plain that Remathilis is correct, this is purely a power dynamics thing.

So you're contending that Dark Sun was created as a power play vs. the players of D&D, and not a creator's artistic vision of a cool and different setting?