Weapon Finesse, does Dex add to damage?

[billd91]

Since halflings don't use Enlarge Person that often in my game... and that half-orc happened to have rage, bull's strength and Improved grapple... and sneak attack... poor halfling duelist.

Which all just underlines how pointless these debates ultimately are. Anyone can come up with a build to screw over an example. At some point, it becomes trivial that it will happen.

 

[Kemrain]

I think power attack works fine with finessable weapons. Think of it as a "called shot".

When you make a normal attack with your rapier, you're just aiming to hit the guy.

When you power attack for 5, you're aiming for his armpit, or his head, or suchlike.

When you power attack for 20, you're aiming for his eyeball.

Works fine for me.

That would work out fine if Power Attack had a Dex requirement and not a Strength requirement. Oh, and making a called shot with a big 2 handed weapon is probably a little tougher than making it with a knife.. Why not make a Power Attack-esque feat that gives the same bonus damage, based off dex, with 1x for one handed weapons and 2x for Light?

- Kemrain the Radical.

 

[DarkMaster]

That would work out fine if Power Attack had a Dex requirement and not a Strength requirement. Oh, and making a called shot with a big 2 handed weapon is probably a little tougher than making it with a knife.. Why not make a Power Attack-esque feat that gives the same bonus damage, based off dex, with 1x for one handed weapons and 2x for Light?

- Kemrain the Radical.

Sneak Attack is a good example of a power attack with finesse.

 

[Darklone]

Which all just underlines how pointless these debates ultimately are. Anyone can come up with a build to screw over an example. At some point, it becomes trivial that it will happen.

Agreed, this was the only barbarian rogue halforc I knew who had Improved Unarmed Strike and Imp Grapple... but otherwise that build was pretty common ... as well as Enlarge and Bulls Strength.

 

[Dwarmaj]

There's a shotsword in Arms & Equipment that allows you to add your Dex modifier to damage instead of your strength. It's pretty pricey at 72k, but well worth it for a high level dex based character.

 

[Diirk]

Human: Str 16, Dex 16, +1 feat
H-Orc: Str 18, Dex 16
Halfling Str 14, Dex 18

Assuming straight up fighters. All armed with spiked chains that you can apply weapon finesse to. Assume level 3 fighters for each, again for equaling out misc. factors.

Human Feats (5)
Ex Wpn Spk Chain, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Imp Trip

H-Orc Feats (4)
Ex Wpn Spk Chain, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave

Halfling Feats (4)
Ex Wpn Spk Chain, Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Improved Finesse

Damage ratings:
Human = 2d4 + str (3) * 1.5 = 2d4 + 4 w/ +6 to hit.
PA Human = 2d4 + str(3) *1.5 + 3 = 2d4 + 7 w/ +3 to hit

H-Orc = 2d4 + str(4) *1.5 = 2d4 + 6 w/ +7 to hit
PA H-Orc = 2d4 + str(4)*1.5 + 3 = 2d4 + 9 w/ +4 to hit

Halfling (small wpn) = 1d6 + str(2)*1.5 + dex(4) = 1d6 + 6 w/ +7 to hit
PA Halfling = 1d6 + str(2)*1.5 + dex(4) + 3 = 1d6 + 9 w/ +4 to hit.



Funny thing isn't it? The halfling can actually match the h-orc for damage, excepting only weapon size, if he takes the correct feats...


H-Orc

Except I believe you calculated it wrong.. Halflings get +1 to hit size bonus making it :

Halfling (small wpn) = 1d6 + str(2)*1.5 + dex(4) = 1d6 + 6 w/ +8 to hit
PA Halfling = 1d6 + str(2)*1.5 + dex(4) + 3 = 1d6 + 9 w/ +5 to hit.

Also being a 2handed weapon, PA should give +6 damage/-3 to hit, but that affects all these characters equally

 

[James McMurray]

Since halflings don't use Enlarge Person that often in my game... and that half-orc happened to have rage, bull's strength and Improved grapple... and sneak attack... poor halfling duelist.

Except that your half-orc didn't have any of that. His feats were already listed. This was a comparison of the power of a specific feat, remember?

And even with all that, the 1/2 Orc will still have to roll higher than the halfling in order to successfully grab him. +11 (str) + 4 (feat) +2 (BAB) -20 = -3. The halfling gets +2 (str) + 3 (bab) - 4 (size) = +1. You might kill him, or he might laugh at you and then kill you. But its all immaterial anyway. This thread isn't about whether 1/2 orcs can grapple halflings, its about whether the feat that applies dexterity to damage is balanced.

 

[Darklone]

Now you spoiled a perfect thread hijack

 

[kwiqsilver]

Example: Halfling fighter. Already better with Power Attack in case he has a Finessed Spiked Chain (twohanded weapon, +2 to hit vs. a human due to dex and size). Now... give him his dex bonus extra on damage (or even instead of his strength damage). He'll have easily more damage than any human WITH Weapon Specialisation. For two feats.

Except that the halfling has to use a light weapon (or rapier) to use WF and light weapons don't benefit from PA. So the two are mutually exclusive.
A greatsword and PA with high strenght deals far more damage with fewer feats. There's even a feat to allow you to deal double STR damage (instead of 1.5x) when using a two-handed weapon.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Except that the halfling has to use a light weapon (or rapier) to use WF and light weapons don't benefit from PA. So the two are mutually exclusive.
A greatsword and PA with high strenght deals far more damage with fewer feats. There's even a feat to allow you to deal double STR damage (instead of 1.5x) when using a two-handed weapon.

Incorrect - Spk Chain is WF allowed, and PA allowed. Takes an extra feat, ut it works.

However, as I demonstrated above, the Hlafling is doing 'comparable' damage to the H-Orc, your mention of the feat to deal double str damage just supports that point.

The halfling has to sacrifice quite a bit to get there too. Sure, he may have higher reflex and ac (where'd ya get the int and cha bonuses??), but a -2 str and the proper selection of feats to get there, and he'll always do less damage than the h-orc due to wpn size.

So I think I've lost track of the original point of this thread and we've bogged down into pointless formulaic arguement. I'll be unsubscribing to this thread as once we've gotten this far, we're into the opinion based viewpoint, and if you haven't been swayed yet, chances are you're just not going to be.