Weapon Finesse, does Dex add to damage?

[DarkMaster]

Elven fighter wizards shoot themselves in the foot for any medium or long term campaign with even multi-classing.

Off balance levels (1/9, 2/8) yield better returns, but now you're short on feats and HP. Anything more balanced and you're impacting on your spell capability, both highest possible spell and spells per day. Thus, fighter/wizard is not going to be worried about maximizing either damage or hits - at least not through fighter feats.

Right?

Assumptions, assumptions.
Off balance level yield better returns, I can give you example where this is not true.

 

[James McMurray]

Elven fighter wizards shoot themselves in the foot for any medium or long term campaign with even multi-classing.

Off balance levels (1/9, 2/8) yield better returns, but now you're short on feats and HP. Anything more balanced and you're impacting on your spell capability, both highest possible spell and spells per day. Thus, fighter/wizard is not going to be worried about maximizing either damage or hits - at least not through fighter feats.

Eldritch Knight? Loss of feats is made up for by the gain in spellcasting ability. I'm not sure how the abilities read, but I'd be more concerned about a Swashbuckler / Wizard if we're talking about an elf. It the feat and class ability don't both say "in place of strength" then you could end up with both Dex and Int to your damage, and Dex to hit. Couple it with Arcane Strike for bonuses to hit and damage with afull round attack, Duelist for bonuses to AC and Precise Strike... Hmmm.

Gotta go look at making a new character for Exodus (link in the sig).

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Eldritch Knight? Loss of feats is made up for by the gain in spellcasting ability. I'm not sure how the abilities read, but I'd be more concerned about a Swashbuckler / Wizard if we're talking about an elf. It the feat and class ability don't both say "in place of strength" then you could end up with both Dex and Int to your damage, and Dex to hit. Couple it with Arcane Strike for bonuses to hit and damage with afull round attack, Duelist for bonuses to AC and Precise Strike... Hmmm.

Gotta go look at making a new character for Exodus (link in the sig).

Heh - did that - SW/Wiz/Rog/Arcane Trickster

at around 12th level - whole party goes 'ow' when he gets a sneak attack in with his rapier


As for adding one point - the whole idea in my example was to show two characters with identical builds. Change one, and you've trashed the whole example.

But fair point made, just not taken as far as the example went. I assumed straight 14's. For you, I'll assume straight 16's (a little more unreasonable, but it'll show the point...)

Human: Str 16, Dex 16, +1 feat
H-Orc: Str 18, Dex 16
Halfling Str 14, Dex 18

Assuming straight up fighters. All armed with spiked chains that you can apply weapon finesse to. Assume level 3 fighters for each, again for equaling out misc. factors.

Human Feats (5)
Ex Wpn Spk Chain, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Imp Trip

H-Orc Feats (4)
Ex Wpn Spk Chain, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave

Halfling Feats (4)
Ex Wpn Spk Chain, Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Improved Finesse

Damage ratings:
Human = 2d4 + str (3) * 1.5 = 2d4 + 4 w/ +6 to hit.
PA Human = 2d4 + str(3) *1.5 + 3 = 2d4 + 7 w/ +3 to hit

H-Orc = 2d4 + str(4) *1.5 = 2d4 + 6 w/ +7 to hit
PA H-Orc = 2d4 + str(4)*1.5 + 3 = 2d4 + 9 w/ +4 to hit

Halfling (small wpn) = 1d6 + str(2)*1.5 + dex(4) = 1d6 + 6 w/ +7 to hit
PA Halfling = 1d6 + str(2)*1.5 + dex(4) + 3 = 1d6 + 9 w/ +4 to hit.



Funny thing isn't it? The halfling can actually match the h-orc for damage, excepting only weapon size, if he takes the correct feats...


H-Orc

 

[James McMurray]

If he were a Stoutheart Halfing he'd have an extra feat and be able to get weapon focus for higher average damage. Even without that you missed the +1 to hit for being small, putting the halfling's damage closer to the half-orc. MAke the halfling a swashbuckler instead of a Fighter (makes sense given the dex-based nature of the class) and he'll shoot past the half-orc because he gets to add his dex twice.

IMO halflings have so many other bonuses that they shouldn't be able to keep up with half-orcs in melee output. That's the half-orc's only schtick.

 

[Barak]

Not to mention the fact that everything else being equal, the halfling also gets a better AC and Reflex save. He also has more skill points, and better CHA and INT skills (not that this matters much for fighters). Well, the half-orc -does- have Darkvision though, so I guess it's ok.

 

[Hypersmurf]

... and he'll shoot past the half-orc because he gets to add his dex twice.

Twice? Why?

-Hyp.

 

[Darklone]

Not to mention the fact that everything else being equal, the halfling also gets a better AC and Reflex save. He also has more skill points, and better CHA and INT skills (not that this matters much for fighters). Well, the half-orc -does- have Darkvision though, so I guess it's ok.

Yupp and the half-orc grapples him with his left hand while laying the smack on the halflings buddy with his one-handed bastard sword.

 

[Gort]

I think power attack works fine with finessable weapons. Think of it as a "called shot".

When you make a normal attack with your rapier, you're just aiming to hit the guy.

When you power attack for 5, you're aiming for his armpit, or his head, or suchlike.

When you power attack for 20, you're aiming for his eyeball.

Works fine for me.

 

[James McMurray]

Sorry, that should have been "he gets to add his Int and his Dex".

Yupp and the half-orc grapples him with his left hand while laying the smack on the halflings buddy with his one-handed bastard sword.

Not with a -20 to the grapple he doesn't.

 

[Darklone]

Not with a -20 to the grapple he doesn't.

Since halflings don't use Enlarge Person that often in my game... and that half-orc happened to have rage, bull's strength and Improved grapple... and sneak attack... poor halfling duelist.