D&D 4E Weapon Sizes must die in 4E

FickleGM

Explorer
Kahuna Burger said:
Another 3.5 sizing rules hater. It's just another level of micromanagement in a game whose core mechanics claim abstractness. No thank you.

(I also join with Nifft in preferring damage based on character rather than equipment. If the system is abstract, make it abstract! Weapon choice should be about background and style not crit ranges and damage dice.)
Yes, it would be interesting to see damage based on the character, instead of the weapon. With the return to 20 crits for x2 (assuming SWSE crits are in 4e), then we already remove one weapon-specific layer.

Specific weapons will still maintain their cost, weight, range, rate of fire, damage type and reach (I think that would be it).

Base damage = d4 (all weapons, unarmed is nonlethal)
Simple Weapon Proficiency = d6 (all weapons)
Martial Weapon Proficiency = d8 (all weapons)

Weapon Specialization = d10 (weapon specific)
Greater Weapon Specialization = d12 (weapon specific)

Exotic Weapon Proficiency = Grants special, weapon-specific maneuvars (weapon specific)

SWSE Martial Arts I-III = as per SWSE (unarmed only)

I don't know, it may be workable...
 

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Li Shenron

Legend
They belong to the kind of rules that add nothing to the game, and the main reason to justify them is "they're not so difficult". Still, even a small difficulty should better go if it serves no purpose. Especially since the main reason for the weapon sizes rules was playing monstrous races, an idea that 4e is not so much going to support at least for a few years.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
I don't mind the 3.5 weapon size rules, but I do think they can be simplified:

Normal weapon damage plus size modifier.

So, a Halfling Sized Longsword would do D8-1, a Human Sized Longsword would do D8, an Ogre Sized Longsword would do D8+1, and a Colossal Dragon Sized Longsword would do D8+8.

Large sized creatures already get good sized damage bonuses due to strength, so I really do not see the need to have a table lookup for the base weapon damage.

Granted, the damage would not be the same with this type of system, but it would be fine. A colossal gold dragon using a greatsword (if allowed) would do 2D6+27 instead of 8D6+19. Sure, it's 34 average points of damage instead of 47, but when modeling a damage system where a single swing of a greatsword from a colossal sized dragon should kill any human hero with a single swing and one is modeling a system where that is not going to occur, it doesn't really matter if it is 30+ damage or 40+ damage.

This could drastically simplify bites, claws, etc. as well. Course, it might force a remodel of hit points (i.e. no longer a need for D12 PCs, D4 through D8 might be sufficient per level).
 

Kahuna Burger

First Post
FickleGM said:
Yes, it would be interesting to see damage based on the character, instead of the weapon. With the return to 20 crits for x2 (assuming SWSE crits are in 4e), then we already remove one weapon-specific layer.

Specific weapons will still maintain their cost, weight, range, rate of fire, damage type and reach (I think that would be it).

Base damage = d4 (all weapons, unarmed is nonlethal)
Simple Weapon Proficiency = d6 (all weapons)
Martial Weapon Proficiency = d8 (all weapons)

Weapon Specialization = d10 (weapon specific)
Greater Weapon Specialization = d12 (weapon specific)

Exotic Weapon Proficiency = Grants special, weapon-specific maneuvars (weapon specific)

SWSE Martial Arts I-III = as per SWSE (unarmed only)

I don't know, it may be workable...
Nice, though I was thinking a class based damage progression similar to BAB, with feats to increase damage with a signature weapon type, and add weapon specific manuvers.
 

The Souljourner

First Post
JDJblatherings said:
DM: Ok, the ogre was using a greatsword as you would a longsword.

PC: Ok, great, I have weapon focus in greatsword

Except that's ridiculous, because the weapon isn't made to be used like a longsword and it's not made to be used by an ogre at all. It would be like you trying to use a longsword with a grip the size of a pencil, not to mention that longswords are generally sharper and used for slicing whereas greatswords are used for cleaving and crushing.

How about we make it a longsword becoming shortsword when the ogre picks it up? So, all of a sudden it becomes a piercing weapon? Whaaa?

And it gets worse if you want them to actually be able to wield normal weapons. What kind of polearms do ogres wield? You're not allowed to have large sized polearms so..... I don't know, it's just impossible.

That's the other problem with no weapon sizes, non-medium sized creatures don't get access to a full selection of weapons.

In my experience, having multiple sized weapons is not a problem for different sized PCs. If they're at all common in the world, their equipment should be too. If they're not, well, that's what you get. Sorry, no, we don't carry centaur barding either. No one's complaining about that.

-Nate
 

JDJblatherings

First Post
The Souljourner said:
Except that's ridiculous, because the weapon isn't made to be used like a longsword and it's not made to be used by an ogre at all. It would be like you trying to use a longsword with a grip the size of a pencil, not to mention that longswords are generally sharper and used for slicing whereas greatswords are used for cleaving and crushing.

12" to 24" handle is small? As for methods of use I can chop thru a tree branch as big as my wrist with my sword, slice and stab with it, it'd likely break someones arm too. But we arent' talking reality and weapons.
The ogre is big enough to break the rules with human sized weapons, what's wrong with that?

How about we make it a longsword becoming shortsword when the ogre picks it up? So, all of a sudden it becomes a piercing weapon? Whaaa?
Never said that happened. And the D&D notion of shortsword use is funny, one method of use of one style of shortsword made them deployable piercing wepaons...what happened to the 2+ feet of blade behind the point? Not to mention my sword has a point, a double edged point designed to pierced things and it is surely not a shortsword.


And it gets worse if you want them to actually be able to wield normal weapons. What kind of polearms do ogres wield? You're not allowed to have large sized polearms so..... I don't know, it's just impossible.

what is impossible? Halberds, pikes, longspears. Usually ogres runabout with big clubs in my campaigns.

That's the other problem with no weapon sizes, non-medium sized creatures don't get access to a full selection of weapons.

Want to use all the weapons created by human civilization as a human can, play a human. Want to be a gnome or halfling well deal with being a gnome or halfling. Choices should mean something , choices are pointless is they have little or no reprecussions.

In my experience, having multiple sized weapons is not a problem for different sized PCs. If they're at all common in the world, their equipment should be too.

That's just it human weapons aren't halfling weapons and aren't ogre weapons. We shouldn't try making them such. The size and design of a weapon is what makes it that given weapon chaning it's size makes it not that weapon. There is also the point of commonality, how many wepaon smiths are turning out weapons designed for Ogres?
 

Zaruthustran

The tingling means it’s working!
Maybe 4E's emphasis on character (rather than items) will make this discussion moot. Or, perhaps weapons will be augmented with magic crystals--if you think the Ogre's flaming greatsword is cool but you're playing a halfling with weapon focus: whip, well just grab the flame orb crystal and attach it to your weapon. Now you have a small-sized flaming whip.
 

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
Wow, this is the first time that I've ever heard anyone complain about weapon size conversions. How exactly is this complicated? No, really, I'm totally lost.

I can't even remember that 3.0 was different in this way, but maybe that's just because I used this particular 3.5 rule before it came out. I also disregard stupid rules like 'long swords only do slashing and short swords only do piercing'. As far as I'm concerned, any sword-like blade can do slashing or piercing; it's just common sense to me.

Sure, a greatsword is designed differently than a long sword, but at the end of the day they're both just long pointy pieces of steel. Worrying about the small design differences is just more trouble than it's worth.
 
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Storm Raven

First Post
The Souljourner said:
If everyone in the world and all their things were suddenly shrunk to tiny size... I think you'd find that you could still pick up a baseball bat and use it to hit a baseball.

No, you probably wouldn't. Physics doesn't work that way.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
Tequila Sunrise said:
Wow, this is the first time that I've ever heard anyone complain about weapon size conversions. How exactly is this complicated? No, really, I'm totally lost.
The key thing you're missing: The people who don't like it understand it just fine, they just think it's a stupid added bit of bookkeeping that adds nothing -- at all -- to the game.
 

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