Weapon vs Armour type modifiers

[MerricB]

So change all the monsters, too. I am half serious.

They actually did this in Rolemaster.

Cheers!

 

[reanjr]

Let me be the first to provide a resounding, "Oh hell, no!" I hated those rules. The weapon vs. armor type modifiers are a great example for me of a degree of realism which does not help the game. It just adds unnecessary complexity and nothing else, IMO.

If you want to prevent everyone using the same weapon, use the weapon rules as written and just have NPCs use varied types of weapons and do so effectively. Once players see that in certain situations a reach weapon can be great, or the way a flail is helpful for tripping and disarming, or the effects of a weapon with a high crit modifier, and so on, suddenly they realize that there are a lot more options to choose from than may seem to be the case.

Exactly what beats a spiked chain? It's an optimal trip weapon (the best a weapon can be for tripping is to be able to be dropped for counter-trip). It is the optimal disarm weapon (+4 from being 2 handed and then an additional +2 bonus from the weapon description). It's on the high end for damage (average of 5 beats the longsword or any other d8 weapon). It is an optimal reach weapon (it can be used against adjacent foes as well as distant; this gets ridiculous in conjuntion with whirlwind attack). How can I illustrate a reason to my players to not use the spiked chain?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Exactly what beats a spiked chain? It's an optimal trip weapon (the best a weapon can be for tripping is to be able to be dropped for counter-trip). It is the optimal disarm weapon (+4 from being 2 handed and then an additional +2 bonus from the weapon description). It's on the high end for damage (average of 5 beats the longsword or any other d8 weapon).

Which are all suboptimal TWO-HANDED weapons. The chain is not really too competitive against two handed weapons in terms of damage. The only two handed weapon that comes out at it's level is the greatclub, and people regularly assert that the greatclub should be a simple, not martial, weapon. Not to mention the fact that most of the one-handed weapons make up the difference in their critical stats.

It is an optimal reach weapon (it can be used against adjacent foes as well as distant; this gets ridiculous in conjuntion with whirlwind attack). How can I illustrate a reason to my players to not use the spiked chain?

It only gets ridiculous in conjunction with a whirlwind attack if the enemies crowd around the guy and wait for it.

 

[MerricB]

Exactly what beats a spiked chain? It's an optimal trip weapon (the best a weapon can be for tripping is to be able to be dropped for counter-trip). It is the optimal disarm weapon (+4 from being 2 handed and then an additional +2 bonus from the weapon description). It's on the high end for damage (average of 5 beats the longsword or any other d8 weapon). It is an optimal reach weapon (it can be used against adjacent foes as well as distant; this gets ridiculous in conjuntion with whirlwind attack). How can I illustrate a reason to my players to not use the spiked chain?

* 2 Handed weapon, so inferior damage to other 2H martial weapons (greatsword, greataxe)
* Only x2 critical. Inferior to greatsword and greataxe.
* Exotic Weapon

That's quite a few negatives there.

Cheers!

 

[knifespeaks]

Um, they already do. Focus = +1 to hit with selected weapon. Specialization = +2 to damage with selected weapon.

No, I mean they can stack with the same weapon when taken again...2 ranks of focus = +2 to hit, 2 ranks of spec = +4 to damage.

Thats actually not a bad idea BOZ, thanks.

Again, the effect I am after is twofold - to make plate mail more intimidating than it is, and to provide more reason to use different sorts of weapons.

 

[Sleeping Dragon]

Exactly what beats a spiked chain? It's an optimal trip weapon (the best a weapon can be for tripping is to be able to be dropped for counter-trip). It is the optimal disarm weapon (+4 from being 2 handed and then an additional +2 bonus from the weapon description).

Well in your typical D&D campaign you will run across a lot of enemies that you can’t trip or disarm. They’re great against Medium or smaller humanoids (and similar creatures), sure, but to use them effectively you need three feats (four with the spiked chain), and there’s still going to be some risk involved.

It's on the high end for damage (average of 5 beats the longsword or any other d8 weapon).

Yes, but it’s also a two-handed weapon, so it should have a higher base damage than the longsword. On the other hand, every martial two-handed weapon (even the lowly greatclub) does at least as much damage as it, without requiring you to spend Exotic Weapon Proficiency to get it. Most do more base damage, without even taking into consideration that the spiked chain has the worst possible crit range and mod.

It is an optimal reach weapon (it can be used against adjacent foes as well as distant; this gets ridiculous in conjuntion with whirlwind attack).

I’m pretty sure there’s been some kind of ruling that Whirlwind Attack can only be used against those within 5 feet, though I may be imagining that. Anyhow, the ‘optimal reach’ ability, as you call it, is probably the spiked chain’s best feature, but you still need to give up a feat to get it, which I think is fair.

In regards to the OP, I never did play 1st or 2nd Ed so I’m not really familiar with the idea, but it seems unnecessarily complicated. IME I’ve not had any problems with people using a wide variety of weapons - in the group I DM no two characters use the same weapon, and we’ve got weapons ranging from your classic longsword to the trident. In the time I’ve been DMing I’ve seen characters wielding halberds, glaives, guisarmes, daggers, greatswords, and almost everything in between. Not had any spiked chain users though

 

[Victim]

I found that weapon vs armor mods in 1e just made people use flails alot. Those weapons (and a few others, like lances, IIRC) had crazy mods against heavy armor, so many of our characters would beat up Plate like chain because the increased bonuses matched the AC improvement.

Also, weapons with good armor mods generally had weaker damage or slower speed. Since 3e weapons generally have some parity based on size and type, weapons don't need special rules to beef them up.

 

[Eremite]

I found that weapon vs armor mods in 1e just made people use flails alot. Those weapons (and a few others, like lances, IIRC) had crazy mods against heavy armor, so many of our characters would beat up Plate like chain because the increased bonuses matched the AC improvement. (snip)

Yep, I have a similar story. The two-handed sword similarly had large bonuses in 1E. My first DM was also one of the worst (*) DMs I have ever seen so we were often without decent equipment, particularly magic items and weapons... so he "graciously" allowed a fighter in our 6th-level party in the original Caverns of Thracia to have a two-handed sword and we thought all of our Christmases had come at once!

*: All characters were pre-rolled by him. MU and cleric spells were randomly rolled. There was no learning of spells once the adventure began. We ditched him as the DM as soon as he taught us the game but stayed friends and never let him DM again.

 

[Ron]

I found that weapon vs armor mods in 1e just made people use flails alot. Those weapons (and a few others, like lances, IIRC) had crazy mods against heavy armor, so many of our characters would beat up Plate like chain because the increased bonuses matched the AC improvement.
[...]

I don't have the weapon vs armour table with me, but it makes sense to have blunt weapons being more efficient against plate armour, whereas swords became near ineffective.

 

[Ron]

Weird, I have no problem at all with variety of weapons in play. In 2e, OTOH, everyone used long swords.

The reason why my characters liked long swords in AD&D2 is because is the most common magic weapon, according to the random treasure generator in the DMG.