D&D General Weapons should break left and right

[Maxperson]

I mean, they kind of do, with all the bonus action attack options martials get. Plus, let's be honest, by the time you're doing 4d10 with firebolt, even CR 13's have 110-230 hit points. So what's 22 fire damage once per round at that point? The Rogue 17 can fire a lousy normal crossbow for 41 damage!

(Average damage, not taking into account Feats, subclass features, or magic items which could augment damage. There is, of course, the chance the Rogue somehow has disadvantage or for whatever reason, has no enemy in range within 5' of an ally, but I feel encountering fire resistance would be a more common occurrence than a Rogue unable to use Sneak Attack).

My issue with the scaling cantrips is that they are unlimited use. I mean, my 20th level wizard somehow only has enough energy to cast 4 first level spells with their d8 or whatever damage, but I can launch an infinite number of 4d10 firebolts. At that point that cantrip is on par with 2nd and 3rd level spells, yet is somehow less magical energy intensive.

I just made cantrips 2x int bonus number of uses before needing a short rest to recharge them. That way you couldn't just sit outside of a structure and chip away at it all day with a cantrip every 6 seconds.

 

[Micah Sweet]

View attachment 418988

The point is most players forget the cart, mule and horses anyway, so they end up monster chow or worse. Because a horse is expensive. The person watching it is expensive (and honesty, what's Joe Commoner going to do against the ogre who has horse on his menu?) and none of that matters once you are in the dungeon.

What they can do is let the adventurers know what happened, or keep them from running off or getting spooked. And plenty of things matter in a verisimilitudinous world beyond the dungeon. This is just another flavor of, "I don't care about that", which is perfectly fine, but I wish people would just say that straight out instead of trying to make a general argument that this stuff doesn't matter.

 

[Micah Sweet]

We aren't interested in D&D the Micah Sweet edition. We're interested in what is the most fun for the most amount of people.

Who's "we" in your opinion? Just yourself and your group? Because IMO you can't speak for anyone else.

 

[Remathilis]

Who's "we" in your opinion? Just yourself and your group? Because IMO you can't speak for anyone else.

We as in "the people playing the current edition and have no interest in going backwards."

 

[Micah Sweet]

We as in "the people playing the current edition and have no interest in going backwards."

First of all, IMO again you cannot for all current players if 5.5. Second, I believe this is a D&D General thread. I'm not sure exactly what that means, but it certainly doesn't just mean 5.5 only.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

My issue with the scaling cantrips is that they are unlimited use. I mean, my 20th level wizard somehow only has enough energy to cast 4 first level spells with their d8 or whatever damage, but I can launch an infinite number of 4d10 firebolts. At that point that cantrip is on par with 2nd and 3rd level spells, yet is somehow less magical energy intensive.

I just made cantrips 2x int bonus number of uses before needing a short rest to recharge them. That way you couldn't just sit outside of a structure and chip away at it all day with a cantrip every 6 seconds.

And without tracking ammo, rogue can launch infinite number of bolts for equal amount of damage to your firebolt. Funny how trying to bring tracing ammo would force other changes for balance reasons.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And without tracking ammo, rogue can launch infinite number of bolts for equal amount of damage to your firebolt. Funny how trying to bring tracing ammo would force other changes for balance reasons.

Changes for balance reasons are never forced IMO, but they might be desired by individual persons or gaming groups.

 

[GobHag]

My issue with the scaling cantrips is that they are unlimited use. I mean, my 20th level wizard somehow only has enough energy to cast 4 first level spells with their d8 or whatever damage, but I can launch an infinite number of 4d10 firebolts. At that point that cantrip is on par with 2nd and 3rd level spells, yet is somehow less magical energy intensive.

I just made cantrips 2x int bonus number of uses before needing a short rest to recharge them. That way you couldn't just sit outside of a structure and chip away at it all day with a cantrip every 6 seconds.

Hotter take but vancian is bad.

First of all, IMO again you cannot for all current players if 5.5. Second, I believe this is a D&D General thread. I'm not sure exactly what that means, but it certainly doesn't just mean 5.5 only.

Yes, but they are speaking to people like me who despise OSR sensibilities.

 

[GrimCo]

Notoriously, they stay by the door of the dungeon and never disappear or get eaten, right alongside those horses PCs buy and forget once they enter the dungeon.

(Seriously, you think it's hard for PCs to account for the gear they are carrying, it's impossible for them to remember the gear they're not...)

Or they just leave it in last safe place, go to dungeon, clear it, come back with wagon and put all the phat loot on it. To be honest, wagon and pack animals are one of the first purchases in our home games for over a decade now. And if animals get eaten, we usually use Animate dead and put few zombies up front to drag it. Or just come back to wagon for short rests. But then again, we rarely do classic dungeons or wilderness survival games any more. Wagon is never forgotten, at lest in my games. Your mileage may vary.

First of all, IMO again you cannot for all current players if 5.5. Second, I believe this is a D&D General thread. I'm not sure exactly what that means, but it certainly doesn't just mean 5.5 only.

Discuss all topics about D&D including D&D rules and products and history, or post your own creations for others to share. Also for discussion about the D&D Adventurers league (DDAL). Includes D&D 5E 2014 and 2024 versions. - This is description of this subforum. So, 5/5.5 only (WotC and 3rd party supplements, but not games based on 5e game engine like A5E or ToV).

 

[Lanefan]

Keep in mind Lanefan has zero issue with a character being or becoming useless randos with a crossbow. The notion is you go into a dungeon with six spells, 20 pieces of ammo, a dagger and a reinforced walking stick and Gods help you if you don't make it back out by the time you have used or broken all of that.

Sounds like a low-level MU to me.

More seriously, you get those spells back daily and merely have to be judicious about how-when you use them. When (or if) they run out, you're on to plan B - at low levels you're still a halfway useful combatant, if unarmoured, and can still contribute in other ways beyond just fighting: lookout, puzzle-solver, mapper, etc.

If you want to play an always-on damage-dealing type, play a Fighter.

And yes, if you're going in with that few resources then you'd better have a good exit strategy. Even the least-equipped PCs I've ever seen have had more than that to start out with.

More important yet, on the design-theory level: 1st-level characters IMO should be at most one step removed from being "useless randos", with their uselessness decreasing as they level up from there. If you're already a hero when you start out, where do you go from there on your zero-to-hero journey?