D&D General Weapons should break left and right

[Hussar]

There is no "screw over" or "nerf" happening here. Nothing in the language written says or implies that you just stick there with no need to balance. Now, if required ability checks to simply stay on while it is moving, that could be seen as a nerf.

Here's the thing. If an item grants an exception to common sense, it explicitly says it in the language. The broom doesn't say that it works how you want it to work, so it doesn't. You don't get to just add in stuff that isn't written. As written it isn't a combat item, it's just a transportation item.

Are you going to call it "screwing over" or a "nerf" if I tell a player that their Horseshoes of Speed won't work unless affixed to the bottom of the horse's hooves? Because it doesn't say bottom.

How else would you affix horseshoes? To the top of the hoof? And, even if you did, what difference would it make? Since when does where you happen to nail a horseshoe in matter?

You feel that brooms should be limited, but boots are not. So. Okay. No one chooses brooms. They simply choose boots. Whoopee. You've managed to shift the players from one incredibly boring, insipid choice to an equally boring, insipid choice. I guess that a success?

 

[AlViking]

And.... now you get my point. By the rules, there is zero reason not to do this. There is zero reason to not buy a broom of flying over any other flying magic item. Sure, you can keep adding in restrictions, in which case the players just switch to boots. Ok, that's not really solving the issue is it? The issue is that players will always choose the most prosaic, practical item over any other consideration. All adding in restrictions does is make another equally boring option the better choice.

So what's the alternative? There's nothing in the rules stopping a character from adding a platform to the broom and surfing 24x7. The surfboard was a bit facetious but nothing stops a saddle from being added.

I think the item is vastly overpowered for it's level and lack of attunement if I don't add what I think are reasonable restrictions. Which is what I explain to my players.

So what's your point other than the game sucks or I'm playing the game wrong?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

So what's the alternative? There's nothing in the rules stopping a character from adding a platform to the broom and surfing 24x7. The surfboard was a bit facetious but nothing stops a saddle from being added.

I think the item is vastly overpowered for it's level and lack of attunement if I don't add what I think are reasonable restrictions. Which is what I explain to my players.

So what's your point other than the game sucks or I'm playing the game wrong?

I don't want to speak to Hussar, but I think the point was that you're not solving the problem of players picking the most boring, insipid choice.

Given the choice, players try to pick the most bang for their buck.
So maybe the solution is to not give them a choice. Or make sure they don't need to worry about their buck, they are getting the most bang, and then some stuff that's not so much bang, but fun, but they can't turn a lot of less bang in for a lot of more bang. Or there is no bang to be had at all, perhaps?

 

[AlViking]

I don't want to speak to Hussar, but I think the point was that you're not solving the problem of players picking the most boring, insipid choice.

Given the choice, players try to pick the most bang for their buck.
So maybe the solution is to not give them a choice. Or make sure they don't need to worry about their buck, they are getting the most bang, and then some stuff that's not so much bang, but fun, but they can't turn a lot of less bang in for a lot of more bang. Or there is no bang to be had at all, perhaps?

They still get unlimited out of combat flight which can be incredibly useful. In a pinch they can still use it in combat even if there is a certain level of risk. Meanwhile the boots have limited usage (in 2024, up to 4 times a day for 1 hour) and require attunement which I think is a decent trade-off.

When one item is vastly more useful than the other for the same rarity, the balance is out of whack if there are no limitations. Whether either one is boring or insipid*? I'm not going to tell other people how to play or what to think.

*Do we really have to use insulting language for options we don't care for?

 

[Lanefan]

And.... now you get my point. By the rules, there is zero reason not to do this. There is zero reason to not buy a broom of flying over any other flying magic item.

Availability. Not everyone can have a Broom when over the campaign there's only one ever randomly happens to come up for sale and another shows up in a dungeon somewhere.

Never mind that in 1e at least, Brooms are fragile things - hit one with a Fireball and if its rider or carrier fails the save odds are high that it's going poof.

Sure, you can keep adding in restrictions, in which case the players just switch to boots. Ok, that's not really solving the issue is it? The issue is that players will always choose the most prosaic, practical item over any other consideration. All adding in restrictions does is make another equally boring option the better choice.

Rings of Flight are also in demand, but they do take up a ring slot and oftentimes there's other more useful rings (e.g. Free Action, Protection, Invisibility, Fire Resistance) people want to wear instead.

 

[Lanefan]

So what's the alternative? There's nothing in the rules stopping a character from adding a platform to the broom and surfing 24x7. The surfboard was a bit facetious but nothing stops a saddle from being added.

I think the item is vastly overpowered for it's level and lack of attunement if I don't add what I think are reasonable restrictions. Which is what I explain to my players.

The bolded is where we disagree, I think. And if a player wants to have their character spend the time, money, and creativity to make the Broom more useful, I'm fine with it!

Note however that adding a saddle is going to make carrying passengers somewhat more difficult...

Then again, I also think attunement is a horribly stifling mechanic and could happily disappear from at least 95% of the items it applies to.

 

[GrimCo]

My house rule is that you need to keep one hand holding the broom. If you cast a spell with somatic components it's an acrobatics check.

That and I curate my list of items for sale, items that provide flight aren't available until higher levels.

It's a mounted item that's thin and has no magic ability to keep you seated. There's no reason I can see to think that you could ride it hands free.

Thx guys. You just gave me 2 great ideas i might implement in next campaign. One is broom with mounted holder for wand of fireball or magic missile and crosshair. WW1 dogfights with guys on flying broomsticks. Other idea is putting seat, handlebars and stirups on broom and having party be broom gang flying around, having matching leather armors with identical symbols on the back. Maybe cool name like Mephisto's devils, Sword Coast chapter.

In 20 years of playing d&d not once has anyone bought that item in any game i played or ran. And it's cool item.

 

[AlViking]

The bolded is where we disagree, I think. And if a player wants to have their character spend the time, money, and creativity to make the Broom more useful, I'm fine with it!

Note however that adding a saddle is going to make carrying passengers somewhat more difficult...

Then again, I also think attunement is a horribly stifling mechanic and could happily disappear from at least 95% of the items it applies to.

It's all relative.

Broom of Flying: No limit on usage, can send it up to a mile away and summon it on demand. Fly speed of 50 if carrying 200 pounds or less, after that speed is 30. There is no upper limit on weight it can carry. Attach this thing to a boat and you have a flying ship. It's an uncommon item, no attunement.

Winged Boots: has 4 charges, regain 1d4 expended charges daily at dawn. Takes an action and 1 charge to gain Fly Speed of 30 feet for 1 hour. Also uncommon but requires attunement.

If you let a character put a hands-free saddle on the broom and they're light enough the broom is double the speed (worst case, same speed as the boots), no action to start flying, no limit to amount you can fly. Want to get something to safety? Put it on the broom and have it fly straight up. It's flat out far superior to the winged boots for the same cost in rarity with no attunement. That's the issue I have with it.

 

[Hussar]

Rings of Flight are also in demand, but they do take up a ring slot and oftentimes there's other more useful rings (e.g. Free Action, Protection, Invisibility, Fire Resistance) people want to wear instead.

Sorry, you're playing AD&D, what is a "Ring Slot"? Those don't exist in AD&D.

But, yes, @Mustrum_Ridcully gets the point. The broom/boots aren't the problem. Just an easy example. But, instead of focusing on the actual problem - players always choosing the most boring, prosaic choice - some folks insist on relitigating the example, over and over again.

The solution, IMO, is to simply ban all DMG magic items. I can see that's what I'm likely going to do in my next campaign. You can buy/make whatever item you like, but, it will not come from the DMG. At least then magic items will have the tiniest bit of flavor.

 

[Maxperson]

Thx guys. You just gave me 2 great ideas i might implement in next campaign. One is broom with mounted holder for wand of fireball or magic missile and crosshair. WW1 dogfights with guys on flying broomsticks. Other idea is putting seat, handlebars and stirups on broom and having party be broom gang flying around, having matching leather armors with identical symbols on the back. Maybe cool name like Mephisto's devils, Sword Coast chapter.

In 20 years of playing d&d not once has anyone bought that item in any game i played or ran. And it's cool item.

LOL That broom gang sounds awesome.

And yeah, I've never seen a Broom of Flying purchased, either. I've seen lots of Boots of Flying purchased in those games that allow magic item buying. And the occasional Flying Rug.