Web and fireball combo

[KarinsDad]

Good point. I suppose a DM could argue, however, that the Web doesn't actually provide cover against a fireball because it is guaranteed to burn up, just as a door doesn't provide cover against a Lightning Bolt if said bolt destroys it, passing through to fry someone on the other side. I'd say the best a Web could do in defense against a Fireball is cause it to detonate at the edge of the Web or not far into it, so that its area fails to include someone toward the far end of the Web.

With regard to the bead, it is a "glowing pea sized bead". So, it doesn't state that it is actually fire, hence, it shouldn't be able to burst through the web.

With regard to the fireball itself, the Web is still cover until it is destroyed. Since it is destroyed at the same time (instantaneous) as the PC making the save, either the web is destroyed pre-save (he loses his cover, but he also loses his entangle: net save modifier 0) or the web is not destroyed pre-save (he does not lose his cover, but he also does not lose his entangle: net save modifier 0).

Either way it is ruled, his saving throw modifier is still 0.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Just to point out that a web does not always provide cover. An opponent standing at the edge of the web (the first 5ft) is entangled and does not get cover from the fireball. Otoh, an opponent standing deep within the web will not be affected by the fireball (or any attack) at all.

 

[apsuman]

Just to point out that a web does not always provide cover. An opponent standing at the edge of the web (the first 5ft) is entangled and does not get cover from the fireball. Otoh, an opponent standing deep within the web will not be affected by the fireball (or any attack) at all.

I thought that as long as the bad guy on the back side of the web is still in the area of effect then he would take the damage from the fireball. Am I wrong here.

 

[pawsplay]

Since a creature only has total cover if it is 20' from the fireball's point of origin. Since a fireball is a 20' spread, it is as a practical matter impossible for anyone in a web to have total cover from the fireball as a result of the web. And as noted, the fireball can be detonated above or below the web, which must be anchored.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

Since a creature only has total cover if it is 20' from the fireball's point of origin. Since a fireball is a 20' spread, it is as a practical matter impossible for anyone in a web to have total cover from the fireball as a result of the web. And as noted, the fireball can be detonated above or below the web, which must be anchored.

No one gets cover because the fireball burns right through the web, just as you don't get cover from a door if the fireball does enough damage to destroy it. As far as being out of the fireball's area due to the web, this is quite possible, especially in a dungeon setting. If the web is cast in a corridor, there will be a 40' long (20' radius from origin) length of webbed corridor. If due to the confines the fireball can not be "lobbed above" but must be fired down the corridor, it may well detonate before reaching 20' into the web, in which case its spread will not fully overlap that of the web, but rather be offset in the direction of the caster, sparing anyone in the far end of the web.

 

[Stalker0]

As a spread, its relatively hard to gain cover against a fireball, as it fills in spaces around corridors.

 

[pawsplay]

No one gets cover because the fireball burns right through the web, just as you don't get cover from a door if the fireball does enough damage to destroy it. As far as being out of the fireball's area due to the web, this is quite possible, especially in a dungeon setting. If the web is cast in a corridor, there will be a 40' long (20' radius from origin) length of webbed corridor. If due to the confines the fireball can not be "lobbed above" but must be fired down the corridor, it may well detonate before reaching 20' into the web, in which case its spread will not fully overlap that of the web, but rather be offset in the direction of the caster, sparing anyone in the far end of the web.

There are no such confines, since a web is anchored, and thus, there is easily enough space above or below it for a bead. Second, there has to be 20' of web between you to provide cover. A point that is 20' from you has 15' of web between you. The fireball would center on the center of the web, which would not have total cover to you, and would envelop the entire web (since it has the same radius).

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

There are no such confines, since a web is anchored, and thus, there is easily enough space above or below it for a bead. Second, there has to be 20' of web between you to provide cover. A point that is 20' from you has 15' of web between you. The fireball would center on the center of the web, which would not have total cover to you, and would envelop the entire web (since it has the same radius).

A standard 10 ft tall, 10 ft wide corridor will be filled top to bottom, left to right, with webbing for a max 40' length. In such a case, there is no guaranteed space above or below for bead. There is 20' of webbing from the origin of a Web spell to the edge of it (hence 20' radius), not 15'. The point of origin, if you were to graph it, is an intersection, not a square. But in any case, 20' is required for total cover, but 5'-15' of webbing provides some cover. Thus, it is up to the DM to decide the ease/difficulty with which a bead can be targeted at the center of a web spell without hitting one of the strands on the way (I would suggest that firing a bead through 20' of Web without hitting a strand is significantly more difficult than firing it through a single arrow slit, as the presumably random distribution of strands makes it difficult to trace an unobstructed straight line--perhaps owing more to the visual challenge than the size of the bead). If the fireball detonates prematurely, it will have a radius that leaves the far end of the web intact and anyone stuck there unharmed. Furthermore, if the caster is close enough to the close end of the Web, there is a risk of him/her getting caught in that fireball.

 

[pawsplay]

These masses must be anchored to two or more solid and diametrically opposed points or else the web collapses upon itself and disappears.

Therefore, it is not anchored to every other surface, which means there is space. Specifically, two points diametric to each other, mirrored to the anchor points, will be clear.

A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

Since a web isn't a "barrier" but an entanglement, it's questionable whether it would prematurely detonate. But even if it did, the shot is a cinch, much easier than an arrow slit.

If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.

Even if the web is a barrier, it will provide no protection. An early detonation would still destroy most of the web.

Simply standing some distance back from the web will provide adequate protection from backblasts. Cover is determined by the depth of the web, not distance from it.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

These masses must be anchored to two or more solid and diametrically opposed points or else the web collapses upon itself and disappears.

Therefore, it is not anchored to every other surface, which means there is space. Specifically, two points diametric to each other, mirrored to the anchor points, will be clear.

Not sure I get your point here. 2 or more solid points. 2 is a minimum, so you technically could have a 20' spread with only 2 poles 40' from each other to support it, but if you want, a 20' radius room could have virtually all of its surfaces serve as anchor points. Regardless, even if someone chose 2 discrete points along a 40' long, 10' wide, 10' tall corridor to serve as the requisite "anchors", the spread still fills the entire volume of that stretch of corridor, serving as a visual and physical obstacle (not impenetrable, but an obstacle nonetheless).

A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

Since a web isn't a "barrier" but an entanglement, it's questionable whether it would prematurely detonate. But even if it did, the shot is a cinch, much easier than an arrow slit.

I'm not really buying this barrier/entanglement distinction you propose. I think a "many-layered mass of strong, sticky strands" that are "similar to spider webs but far larger and tougher" and that can "trap those caught in them" can present an obstacle. Since 5-15' of Web provides a cover bonus against arrows and 20' of Web totally blocks arrows, I think it's a reasonable bet that you stand a chance of detonating a fireball bead on one of the strands on the way to the center. But the ease of the shot, as I said in my previous post, is a matter of opinion. I say it's harder than an arrow slit, you say it's a cinch, but ultimately it's the call of whoever's DMing.

If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.

Even if the web is a barrier, it will provide no protection. An early detonation would still destroy most of the web.

Agreed. As I said, the Web provides no cover against the flames of a fireball. The only ones spared would be those who are not in its area in the first place, i.e. possibly those at the far end. Just how far (or whether any are spared) depends on how far the DM and the dice (if applicable) let you get the bead to the center of the Web.

Simply standing some distance back from the web will provide adequate protection from backblasts. Cover is determined by the depth of the web, not distance from it.

It's not hard to get that distance under ideal circumstances, but in a dungeon setting the danger may present itself, and if the DM rules that it is a difficult shot, you may need to get close to maximize your chances of visualizing an unobstructed path through the mass of strands to hit the center. Not sure of your point in highlighting the difference between depth vs. distance, as I don't see any disagreement on that.