Web and fireball combo

[Infiniti2000]

I cannot dismiss the one rule we have that tells us when Total Cover applies in a Web like you are.

Remember that I'm not dismissing it, I can't be because it's the main point in contention. I'm arguing that the conditions for total cover in the web spell are not obtained with respect to a spread. The rules that allow this is the part that the first 5ft offers no cover and that's the part of the web spell cover rule that applies for spreads, not the other web spell cover rules.

I'm hoping that this clarifies my rules-position sufficiently that you don't think it's unfounded, despite knowing you agree with my position.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

Can you or KD respond to my point about soft cover?

I left this one alone because while it may sound reasonable to think Web should work like soft cover there's nothing to say it does. It says it provides cover, and in the rules on cover, "hard" cover isn't called "hard cover," just cover. Soft cover is sort of a variant or exception to the general rule. Thus, since Web refers to "cover" I think it's a safe bet they didn't intend it to be "soft cover" otherwise the onus would have been on them to specify it was. Again, it doesn't sound bad to think of it that way, but we're arguing plenty on what the rules say now, so I didn't want to add more issues, particularly for house rules or loose interpretation.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

Because spreads have text that outline it as such, as I noted, similar to movement. An arrow does not. Sure, it passes through those squares but then end result is A->D. The famous example of this that I recall that I hope will explain this better was brought up by I think Hyp many years ago on another board. Consider shooting a +4 arrow at a target 80ft away. In the middle of its path, the arrow passes through a 20ft diameter anti-magic field. Considering only the enhancement bonus, what's the final bonus you use to calculate the attack roll? The choices are obviously either +4 (no adjustment) or +3 (subtract out 20ft/80ft, or 25%). I hope you'll agree that it's undeniably +4, but if the arrow worked like a spread (admittedly almost impossible to conceptualize) I'd lean towards +3.

Cover and Reflex Saves: Cover grants you a +2 bonus on Reflex saves against attacks that originate or burst out from a point on the other side of the cover from you. Note that spread effects can extend around corners and thus negate this cover bonus.
Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can’t see. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes. When determining distance for spread effects, count around walls, not through them. As with movement, do not trace diagonals across corners. You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect.
A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.

I'm sorry but nowhere in these rules do I see anything that suggests that you redetermine whether cover applies in a Web for a spread a la A->B->C->D, whereas you don't for other things like arrows. I see nothing of the sort at all. A spread moves through space, and an arrow moves through space. A spread can turn corners around cover, and an arrow cannot. That's what I see. I'm ready to leave this be and agree to disagree, however, because I say the Web is toast from the Fireball anyway, so this is 100% academic to me.

 

[KarinsDad]

Can you or KD respond to my point about soft cover?

Soft cover is a specific game term relating to cover due to interposing creatures. A Web is not a creature, hence, it is normal cover. It is also normal cover due to the fact that it is not called out as soft cover.

 

[Infiniti2000]

MC: I left this one alone because while it may sound reasonable to think Web should work like soft cover there's nothing to say it does. It says it provides cover, and in the rules on cover, "hard" cover isn't called "hard cover," just cover. Soft cover is sort of a variant or exception to the general rule.

KD: Soft cover is a specific game term relating to cover due to interposing creatures. A Web is not a creature, hence, it is normal cover. It is also normal cover due to the fact that it is not called out as soft cover.

But then you can look at the definition of "cover":

cover
Any barrier between an attacker and defender. Such a barrier can be an object, a creature, or a magical force. Cover grants the defender a bonus to Armor Class.

Since it mentions an object (hard cover) and a creature (soft cover), clearly "cover" alone does not imply hard cover. I think it's reasonable to assume that the determination of hard cover vs. soft cover is up to the DM. For example, a wall of thorns is explicitly called a "barrier" and thus should provide cover as per the definition above. But, the spell description doesn't say it provides cover. How do you rule such a thorny problem? (groan)

 

[Infiniti2000]

I'm ready to leave this be and agree to disagree, however, because I say the Web is toast from the Fireball anyway, so this is 100% academic to me.

Fine, we can disagree.

In summary, I rule it the victim(s) do not get cover and get the -4 penalty on Dex due to entanglement. The fireball will burn away the entire web (it will not stop 20ft into the web, if widened), but take the whole round (i.e. not until the initiative count next round of when the fireball was cast).

I can see the dispute on the first part, but not the 1 round timing on the second part.

 

[Nail]

How do you rule such a thorny problem? (groan)

Ouch!

IMC, I'll rule that the web provides cover, and the fireball burns away the web touched by fire in 1 round.

Incidentally, I rule that the fire damage only happens once during the round it burns. That is, multiple passes thru the burning web only causes burning damage once.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

But then you can look at the definition of "cover":
Since it mentions an object (hard cover) and a creature (soft cover), clearly "cover" alone does not imply hard cover. I think it's reasonable to assume that the determination of hard cover vs. soft cover is up to the DM. For example, a wall of thorns is explicitly called a "barrier" and thus should provide cover as per the definition above. But, the spell description doesn't say it provides cover. How do you rule such a thorny problem? (groan)

I assume the groan is at your own bad pun and not because the problem is all that vexing. It is up to the DM to determine whether something provides cover, but a "barrier" is an excellent candidate for cover and I would not hesitate to consider a wall of thorns to provide cover. I would not say it provides total cover because you can move through it.

Meanwhile, an electronic search through my SRD finds no instance of "hard cover." It finds only one passage in which "soft cover" is mentioned:

Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.

Here, soft cover refers specifically and unambiguously to creatures. Anything else is just "cover." Web is not a creature and Web specifies that it provides cover; it does not say "soft cover." Thus, by all accounts, Web does not provide "soft cover." Implementing it as "soft cover" is a matter of house ruling and not, IMO, interpretation of the rules, which are uncharacteristally clear in this case.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Incidentally, I rule that the fire damage only happens once during the round it burns. That is, multiple passes thru the burning web only causes burning damage once.

How utterly hypocritical of you and you know what I'm talking about!

(in jest, of course)

 

[Nail]

....ROTFL!!.....

Yep, I know.

Spoiler

...and for those of you that don't: In a previous camapign, by Clr killed the Githyanki Lich Queen by running her through a Blade Barrier eight times in one round. Boy, that damage can really add up.....