Web and fireball combo

[Infiniti2000]

The rule for spreads does not even do that. It merely states that it goes around corners and can hence bypass cover. This assumes that there is a corner or edge for which cover does not apply (which is not the case for Web).

Let's re-quote all the rules on negating cover by spread effects, because you are focusing on the 'corner' one and leaving out the other, more important one (for this debate).

Cover and Reflex Saves
Cover grants you a +2 bonus on Reflex saves against attacks that originate or burst out from a point on the other side of the cover from you. Note that spread effects can extend around corners and thus negate this cover bonus.

Spread
Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can’t see. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes. When determining distance for spread effects, count around walls, not through them. As with movement, do not trace diagonals across corners. You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect.

There you have it: "The effect can extend ... into areas that you can’t see." I think this allows my interpretation.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

Let's re-quote all the rules on negating cover by spread effects, because you are focusing on the 'corner' one and leaving out the other, more important one (for this debate).
There you have it: "The effect can extend ... into areas that you can’t see." I think this allows my interpretation.

I think you have it wrong, I2K. As I understand it, the point about going around cover is that if a straight line from the point of origin to the target place is blocked by cover it can still be reached if, by going up to that cover and then continuing along and around, you can eventually reach it with the total distance "traveled" still within the radius of the effect. Whether or not you can see it is not the more important point; in fact it is a moot point.

A spread does not ignore cover. It is just that a spread can circumvent cover if there is a non-straight path through unblocked squares, no more than <radius of spread> length from the point of origin to the target location. When you have a nice clear area with walls, I think it is very clear how this works and everyone, to my knowledge, agrees. With the Web it should be as simple but there seems to be confusion. For the sake of argument, let's for now say I go with yours and KD's interpretation that a Fireball does nothing special against the cover provided by a Web in that round in terms of burning stuff away. In that case, after penetrating past the first 5' of Web, the FB spread encounters cover. It can go around cover, but does penetrate straight through it unabated. So consider the diagram below:

W W W W W W W W
W W W W W W W W
W W W W W W W W
W W W W W W W W
W W W W W W W W
W W W W W W W W
W W W W W W W W
W W W W W W W W

I hope that works. If you have a black background you should see a 20' spread of Ws with one red W and some green and blue ones as well. The W's represent the area of the Web. Imagine a Widened Fireball whose origin point is at the lower left corner of the bottommost blue W's square. If you follow a path straight north on the right side of the origin point you go through 20' of Web (represented by blue Ws) before the red W target location and so are blocked from affecting that square. But if you follow the path straight north on the left side of origin, first you go through 5' of empty space, then 15' of Web (green W's) before going diagonally northeast to the red W so that only regular (not total) cover applies. In either case it would take you 25' of spread to cover that red W square (hence Widened FB) but in one case there is 20' of Web to go through before the close edge of that red W square and in the other there is only 15'. If I have the Web spread wrong in any way you can just imagine a Web that has been partially burnt away in previous rounds to establish a scenario where one path leads through 20+' of Web while another doesn't.

The same logic applies whether you are wondering whether you can get to the target through less than 20' of Web to avoid total cover or whether you can get there through less than 5' of Web to avoid any cover at all. For the latter question, consider the same Widened Fireball with the same origin (bottomleft corner of bottommost blue W square) and a target of the orange W's square. While most paths take you through many squares of Web to get to it, with a 40' radius FB you can easily skirt along the edge counter clockwise and then--bam!--hit that orange W square from the SE with no Web squares along the path before it, so no cover applies at all.

You don't reconsider whether you have 5' (or 20') of cover after each advancing 5' of the spread for the same reason that you don't do that for an arrow. You don't say that the arrow makes it through the first 5' fine and then, at that point, there is 0' to the next square of Web. That would defeat the point of having Web provide cover after 5' and total cover after 20', if once you get up to a point you reconsider as if the origin point had moved. What makes a spread different from an arrow (or a burst) is not that it ignores cover but that it can take advantage of alternate paths from the point of origin to the target location that might be clear of cover (or have fewer squares of cover to go through), so long as this alternate route takes no more distance to travel than the radius of the spread.

 

[KarinsDad]

There you have it: "The effect can extend ... into areas that you can’t see." I think this allows my interpretation.

It does nothing of the sort.

Where in your quotes does it state that cover is recalculated on each square? Nowhere.

Where in your quotes does it state that cover bonuses are ignored? Nowhere.

Nothing in the rules you quoted indicate that the total cover after 20 feet of a Web spell is ignored for a Spread.


You quoted rules that indicate how a Spread goes around Total Cover via the squares, but you ignore the rule of 20 feet of Web (in any direction, even around corners) creates Total Cover for the attack.

Granted, the wording of cover in the Web spell is suspect to begin with (since it doesn't really state which types of attacks get cover and which do not and people can infer that some attacks get cover / total cover and some do not). But just literally using cover after 5 feet and total cover after 20 (shy of other rules which explain an exception to the normal cover rules) is not supportive of your interpretation.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

After skimming this, I think the way I will run it is as follows:

If you are in a web that is Fireballed:
- You gain the bonus to REF for cover based on how far into the Web you are from the point of detonation
- If Entangled, you gain the normal penalty to REF for Entangled

The fireball strikes the strands of webbing and detonates within the first 5' of the Web'd area, dealing its instantaneous damage to everything in its area and destroying the web strands.
The 5' space of strands of webbing at the edges of the Fireball burst are ignited and will burn in one round, dealing damage per the Web spell to occupants of those squares on the following initiative count.


My reasoning: The Fireball spell states that it can shatter or break an intervening barrier, such as a wooden door, then the spread continues unabated. Since we do not have the hardness and HP rating for a 5' cube of webbing, I assume that the spell's damage will suffice to destroy the strands.

.. and, its easier to remember

YMMV

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

- You gain the bonus to REF for cover based on how far into the Web you are from the point of detonation
[...]
The Fireball spell states that it can shatter or break an intervening barrier, such as a wooden door, then the spread continues unabated. Since we do not have the hardness and HP rating for a 5' cube of webbing, I assume that the spell's damage will suffice to destroy the strands.

Okay, but if you say that the FB spread continues unabated, then why does the Web provide a cover bonus to the Reflex save? If a FB blasted away a door between its point of origin and you, you wouldn't get cover, would you?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Magus Coeruleus: "If a FB blasted away a door between its point of origin and you, you wouldn't get cover, would you?"

Why not? I don't think its such a bad thing to grant a bonus to a REF save when the damaging spell has to burn through intervening material. The wording of the FB spell does not say anything about the damaging capablity being reduced after breaking through an intervening obstacle..but I can easily imagine a player saying 'Wait a second! I was behind a door for crying out loud, doesn't that count for something?'

Per RAW? Nope. Doesn't count for jack. By a strict reading of the rules a FB dealing 41 points of damage could burn through a 1' thick iron door {Hardness 10, HP 30} and deal full damage to the character on the other side.....

 

[KarinsDad]

Up until now, I have been discussing how I think the rules work in this thread.

Web provides cover and total cover. The Spread rules discuss how spreads go around total cover, but do not discuss how they go around or through cover. Nor do the Spread rules discuss negating the cover bonus. Hence, the cover rules of Web trump. There is a difference between how people think Spreads should work and what is actually written in the Spread rules.


However, here is how I think it should work. Webs are supposed to be flammable. They burn away at 5' per round. We are not given the hit points or hardness of a Web, presumably so that PCs cannot hack away at it.

If you put a torch against an oak door, it might get charred a little, but it is not particularly flammably and will probably not catch on fire, at least not in a short period of time. Webs, on the other hand, are very flammable. As such, I think a Fireball should instanteously blow through a Web and keep on going, just as it typically blows through an Oak Door. It should do it so quickly that the Web does not provide cover, on the other hand, the Web also should not be entangling the creatures caught in the Fireball either. The text of a burning Web in the Web spell also should not apply. The creatures are not taking damage from a burning Web, they are taking damage from the Fireball. The Web does not get a chance to burn the creatures or even entangle the creature anymore because the Fireball instantly burns it away.

That's how I think it should work, but that's JMO.

 

[Infiniti2000]

A spread does not ignore cover. It is just that a spread can circumvent cover if there is a non-straight path through unblocked squares, no more than <radius of spread> length from the point of origin to the target location.

The problem is that there are no blocked squares in a web. There's only an accumulation of squares that result in blockage. Only when an attack goes from point A to B can you accumulate those squares. That happens with an arrow, burst, or ray, but not a spread.

In the wall scenario, there's no blockage because the cover is then recalculated from a different position. I'm arguing nothing differently for the web scenario.

Let's look at what happens with a spread area.

Burst, Emanation, or Spread
A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.

So the fireball erupts and how do you figure how far it reaches (to its maximum radius)? Do you (a) skip from the origin to any specific point (ignoring what's in between) or (b) go from square to square, "taking into account any turns the spell effect takes?"

Interestingly, the following rules on spreads are not pertinent because it's for an Effect, not an Area. Doesn't this mean that any references to it (for area spells like fireball) are not correct?

Spread
Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can’t see. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes. When determining distance for spread effects, count around walls, not through them. As with movement, do not trace diagonals across corners. You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect.

 

[KarinsDad]

The problem is that there are no blocked squares in a web. There's only an accumulation of squares that result in blockage. Only when an attack goes from point A to B can you accumulate those squares. That happens with an arrow, burst, or ray, but not a spread.

You keep making this type of claim, but you really have no rules support that a spread does not go from point A to B and accumulate the squares of blockage, just like an arrow.

You also have no rules support that a spread going through a square with cover ignores the cover or ignores the cover bonus.


You added this concept, presumably from the spread mechanics on how to go around total cover, but there are no actual rules there for this.

You are treating a spread differently than an arrow, but not giving rules support for why this would happen. The "circumvent total cover" rules of spread do not discuss this issue.


All we really have from a rules perspective is that Web gives cover after 5 feet and total cover after 20 feet. Nothing more.

 

[Infiniti2000]

...you really have no rules support...

Continuing to say that does not make it true, nor does it help your case at all.