Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
I've been late before more often than I've been early, and we have a clear favourite this time, so I figured why not get the unveiling a little early?
As usual for the showcase, these builds are intended to spur discussion and perhaps inspire a few people in the spirit of the old CO boards. They come from members of my gaming group - me, Radical Taoist, DisposableHero_, Andarious, Sionnis, and Seishi - and I'll always identify who wrote the build at the start, so do not assume I'm the guy behind all of them (because I'm not!).
Unless otherwise noted, showcase builds use 28 point-buy, and have their snapshots evaluated using fractional base attack / saves (because it simplifies the math). None of them actually rely on fractional to be built, though. The format I use showcases their progression at key levels rather than just presenting the build and showing off a few tricks at level 20; most of these are capable of being played 1-20 if you so choose.
With that out of the way, let's get started. This week, one of RadicalTaoist’s babies is up. He also helped quite a bit with this writeup, which should be clear when the writing style shifts.
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GNOWHERE GNOME
A little man who wasn’t there
Required Books: PHB2, Races of Stone, Lords of Madness, Complete Adventurer, Complete Mage, Tome of Battle, Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium.
Unearthed Arcana used: None!
Background: RT played a single-classed kenku beguiler in a game a while back, capitalizing on beguiler stealth and misdirection when combined with natural kenku psychology and mimicry. The Gnowhere Gnome (yes, the silent G does make it deadlier) is a natural revision of that build – the sneakiest bastard that you’ll gnever find.
The Basics
Skill Gnotes: It goes without saying that you’re investing in Hide and Move Silently. Also max out the rest of the trapscout skills (Disable Device, Listen, Search, and Spot), as well as Concentration and Bluff. Plan yourself more as a scout than a caster on the skill front – you gneed 12 Spellcraft and a reasonable Concentration for your feats, but should be fine elsewhere. You should max out Use Magic Device, but not at first; you only need 12 ranks in Spellcraft, and by then your level-based stat increases should give you more skill points, so ignore UMD from levels 1-7 and then boost it more later on. If you can spare the skill points, look into some skill tricks in the mid-to-late levels; False Theurgy, Timely Misdirect, Group Fake-Out, and Swift Concentration come to mind.
Basic Equipment: Masterwork stealth gear (i.e. your gnome gninja outfit) is a good place to start. A light or heavy crossbow is a good fallback weapon to conserve early slots. You will need to have a melee threatened area later on; any basic weapon will work (dagger for style and preference, but a gauntlet works too – as does any magic staff or rod you’re packing at that point).
Magical Gear Goals: Your mundane and caster gear selection is pretty straightforward. I like the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis here (it gives you a set of particularly nice stealth abilities that combine well with beguiler illusions – the real sell his Hide in Plain Sight, though, and you can get that through one of your Advanced Learnings), and you can save yourself a feat at the late game with the MIC’s Serpent Armor (preferably enhanced with Greater Shadow and Silent Moves). For reasons which will be discussed below, a Circlet of Persuasion is a better buy for you than for most beguilers. Similarly, you might want to pack a runestaff with Greater Dispel Magic on it – shockingly, it’s not on the beguiler list, but it’s highly desirable to have a dispeller who can’t be located, and it gives you some help against Mind Blanks and True Seers.
The Build.
Build Stub: Beguiler 20.
1 – Beguiler – (Armored Mage, Trapfinding) (Darkstalker)
*
[sblock]Do not underestimate the power of this feat. Although it’s online a little early here, it can make all the difference against most anti-stealth measures people will take. [/sblock]
2 – Beguiler – (Cloaked Casting (DC +1), Surprise Casting)
3 – Beguiler – (Advanced Learning: Shock and Awe) (Improved Diversion)
*
[sblock] Shock and Awe is an amazing spell from the Spell Compendium, but it’s normally pretty limited in when it can be employed – surprise rounds only. It’s a great fit for sneaky beguilers like yourself – cast it on whoever will raise the alarm or who can make or break an upcoming fight. Improved Diversion can keep you hidden while you cast – it speeds up your ability to create diversions to the point where you can cast spells and shout “look behind you, a three-headed monkey!” in the same round. You’re unfortunately limited to a 5’ step in hiding, but with Darkstalker and the right use of Silent Image, that will do. [/sblock]
4 – Beguiler –
*
[sblock] Fog Cloud and Invisibility start to compete with Silent Image for providing a hiding place in combat. Bump Int at this level. [/sblock]
5 – Beguiler – (Silent Spell)
*
[sblock] This feat will become much more useful later, but it’s good to have a way to mask your vocal components. [/sblock]
6 – Beguiler – (Surprise Casting (move action)) (Mobile Spellcasting)
*
[sblock] This feat allows you to move and cast a spell as a single standard action. Improved Diversion and the Beguiler’s Surprise Casting allow you to bluff to feint or create a diversion as a move action. You can, in a single round, vanish from the sight any foe without the Sense Motive or Spot to match your Bluff and Hide checks; casting a Fog Cloud or Invisibility and moving is hard to counter when you’ve got Darkstalker. [/sblock]
7 – Beguiler – (Advanced Learning: Phantasmal Strangler)
*
[sblock] This is a lovely save-or-up-yours that grapples for an extended period of time against foes who fail their save. Action advantage and denial of Dex? Hell yes! [/sblock]
8 – Beguiler – (Cloaked Casting (Spell Penetration +2))
*
[sblock] Improved Invisibility appears, allowing you to be more aggressive. Boost your Int score again and start putting ranks into UMD. Freedom of Movement also appears, protecting you from sticky situations.[/sblock]
9 – Beguiler – (Rapid Metamagic)
*
[sblock] And now using Silent Spell no longer costs you bigger actions, freeing you up to move or Bluff. [/sblock]
10 – Beguiler – (Still Spell)
*
[sblock] Not quite as handy as Silent Spell, but hey, when you need to cast a Still Freedom of Movement, you’ll appreciate it. [/sblock]
11 – Beguiler – (Advanced Learning: Nightmare Terrain)
*
[sblock] A magnificent spell; it entangles enemies and lets you hide while observed in its effect. Probably hands down the best spell in your arsenal for when you gneed to both make life difficult for your enemies and disappear GNOW. [/sblock]
12 – Beguiler – (Spectral Skirmisher)
*
[sblock] This PHB2 feat gives you two benefits while invisible. One, enemies take a -5 penalty to Listen checks to locate you. Two, you can make an Attack of Opportunity against any foe who attacks the square you occupy (though it tells them where you are and removes any miss chance). The first benefit is useful now; the second not quite yet. [/sblock]
13 – Beguiler
14 – Beguiler – (Cloaked Casting (DC +2))
*
[sblock] In addition to that nice little DC boost, two things are worth gnoting. First, you gain access to Project Image at this level, which is just unfair in a beguiler’s hands. See how Project Image combines with other illusions. You can create more decoys by casting Greater Mirror Image through your projected image, change its appearance with Disguise Self and make the enemies believe there’s a traitor in their ranks, or just enjoy another invisible point of origin for your spells by casting Greater Invisibility on it. Second, if you’ve been boosting UMD since level 8, by this point you should have a fairly good amount of ranks in there (especially since we haven’t had to spend skill points on Spellcraft for five levels). Get a Circlet of Persuasion and a few useful wands to deal with enemies that are immune to mind-affecting effects. [/sblock]
15 – Beguiler – (Advanced Learning: Simulacrum) (Evasive Reflexes)
*
[sblock] Evasive Reflexes allows us to take a non-provoking 5’ step in place of an AoO. Remember that second benefit to Spectral Skirmisher? Yes, that's right; they attack the square you’re in, and you’re suddenly gnot in it anymore. This is the level by which Serpent Armor becomes very handy, but only wear it if you can get that enchanted with Greater Shadow and Silent Moves enhancements; the primary function of armor for us is to boost our Hide and Move Silently checks. Also take any enhancement that would remove ACP. We don’t care about our Armor Class; a guy who can’t be targeted doesn’t gneed to worry about being hit. Alternatively, with your UMD you can use an Eternal Wand of Heroics to supply yourself with Combat Reflexes, and forget the Serpent Armor.
As a second point, Simulacrum can cause… problems if the DM isn’t prepared. Not only can it produce decoys or body doubles (including duplicates of yourself – see everything up there with Project Image? Now double it and shave off a few levels from the double), it can also duplicate NPCs. Expect a clever player to be able to do great things with this spell.
[/sblock]
16 – Beguiler –
*
[sblock] You acquire Moment of Prescience at this level. If you’ve got a Ring of Evasion, this is the spell that will save your bacon when they stop trying to look for you and start blasting the area with explosive magic. [/sblock]
17 – Beguiler
18 – Beguiler – (Combat Reflexes OR Extraordinary Concentration)
*
[sblock] Combat Reflexes is the last piece of your “gnever touch me” engine. With it, you can use Evasive Reflexes more than once per round, allowing you to dodge multiple attempts to attack your square. If your GM allows you to get Serpent Armor modified with the appropriate enhancements, or if you have an Eternal Wand of Heroics, then you do not need to take Combat Reflexes. In such a case, take the Extraordinary Concentration feat from Complete Adventurer. This lets you concentrate on a spell (like Scintillating Pattern or Major Image) as a move action. Remember Mobile Spellcasting? You can move, cast, and concentrate all in the same round, and that doesn’t even affect your swift action. [/sblock]
19 – Beguiler – (Advanced Learning: Shades)
*
[sblock] Excuse me while I add about half of the Conjuration school to my beguiler spell list. [/sblock]
20 – Beguiler – (Cloaked Casting (SR Breach))
Snapshot: Let’s toss on the +6 items on Constitution, Dexterity, and Intelligence, and assume you pumped Intelligence all the way (i.e. all five pumps into Int, along with a +5 tome, as opposed to amping up Dexterity) – the long game version. We also discussed, above, that your ‘ideal’ armor is probably Serpent Armor (mechanically +1 leather) with Greater Shadow and Greater Silent Moves, and a Circlet of Persuasion. (While this does give the Gnowhere Gnome a bit more equipment than usual for snapshots, I group these particular on the “+skills” heading that I usually use when discussing skillmonkeys, although they are a touch pricier. No one blinked when we gave +Concentration items to Diamond Mind specialists - same thing here). This finishes off with 152 HP, +10 base attack (or ray +16), and saves of 10/12/12, with a spell save DC of 21+spell level (+2 if you catch ‘em off-guard, which is, er, likely) – rather good for a baseline without further gear or buffs on a spellcaster, albiet slightly skimpy on straight-up HP. Skillwise you’re looking at 228 total skill points and no changes in skill list from 1-20: this is plenty to max out Concentration, Hide, Move Silently, Bluff, Disable Device, Search, Spot, Listen, and Use Magic Device, with points left over to hit Spellcraft 12 (required for your feats). This approach leaves you with 9 skill points left, which you can use to pick up four skill tricks; our recommendation is Timely Misdirection, Clarity of Vision, Swift Concentration and any other one that seems useful to you (i.e. Listen to This).
Taking a step back, let’s look at those skill bonuses. Adding in the gear above, synergy, and racial modifiers, you’re looking at trapscout skills of +34/+34 and sense skills of +25/+25, along with a Bluff of +28 and a Use Magic Device of +30. Those are very good. But the real victor here? Stealth. Hide is +52, Move Silently is +48, and you’ve got the full suite of Beguiler misdirections (Project Image, Simulacrum, and assorted Invisibility tricks), plus Darkstalker (+Hide in Plain Sight from Nightmare Terrain or equipment), Shadow Striker + Evasive Reflexes (+Serpent Armor's Combat Reflexes), and Mobile Spellcasting (+Rapid Metamagic +Silent Spell + Still Spell).
Let me put it in perspective. On the left, you have your common ninja. On the right, you have the Gnowhere Gnome.
Any questions?
Overall Strengths: You’re gnot exactly an easy guy to pin down. Able to hide from just about anything, including a direct target, and able to do so in the middle of combat in an open plain should you so desire, the Gnowhere Gnome is basically a paragon of what the beguiler can be. It’s also simple enough to fly at any table – and with his skill list, he’d have no problem being welcome at many tables either. Stick him in your stealth/scout roles and watch him shine (…or, okay, gnot see him shine – let’s be honest here); later on his magic grows to the point where he can even play at being a wizard, particularly with Shades or runestaff fun.
Overall Weaknesses: What do your opponents do when they fight someone who can’t be pinned down? That’s right, they nuke the site from orbit bring on the area effects. Your Reflex and Fortitude saves are your natural weak points as a result – they’re all that stand between you and a very painful Fire Storm or Cloudkill. Look into Rings of Evasion, or the much cheaper (but less spammable) Diamond Mind rings linked to the appropriate counter, and don’t be afraid to use that Moment of Prescience effect to stay alive. There’s also the usual issues with beguilers in specific or illusionists/enchanters in general, gnamely, the host of things immune to your spells. You’re better equipped than most to handle that (Use Magic Device), but this can get costly really quick. (Thankfully, you’re Beguiler 20, so SR usually isn’t a factor.)
Variants: As a Beguiler 20, the points of variation here largely fall on feats and Advanced Learning choices. Your feats largely fall in two categories (deceptive spellcasting and stealth/misdirection), and there’s no direct synergy between them that depends on these particular sets of feats (they work well together, but they don’t depend on each other), you can rotate them around as you see fit. The only potential problem is that with so (relatively) few degrees of freedom, the further you deviate, the more likely it is to run into another beguiler 20 build.
There you have it. I think, quite possibly, that the Gnowhere Gnome is the iconic Beguiler. Go ahead, tell us how you’d beat this.
…And gno apologies from us on the random silent G. It’s required, ye’see.
Looking for feedback, and, as always, a vote!
Next up: Take your pick from [DH] Eat Sleep Gank, [RT] Edge of the Light, and - shock of shocks - [TS] Flip the Bird. (Yes, it's been too long since I contributed a build!). Depending on how on the ball we are this week, I'll try to get [AR] Uberflank up as well.
And re: the other forums: Due to circumstances both unforeseeable and predictable (read: we're all Canadian, and last week was our Thanksgiving holiday), our group didn't meet last week for game night, which means the final say is a bit delayed. Not forgotten, not procrastinated, just delayed. This really should be the last delay; you'll get an answer before the next build is showcased.
Originally posted by draco1119:
Very nice. Too bad I don't have LoM. :/
I've got a question about the use of Silent Image: is it possible to place it (for example) hiding behind a bush on the opposit side of a clearing? The intent would be to make it appear to be a sneaky character who succeeded on a Move Silently check, but failed the Hide check.
Originally posted by draco1119:
Oh, and why no Shadowcraft Mage?
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
It only uses Darkstalker from there, and that feat is extremely straightforward (namely, Hide works against special sense techniques such as Scent, Blindsense, and Tremorsense). Basically the only thing that'll spot you is feat-exclusive sensory measures like Mindsight or Life Sense.
If you have line of sight and line of effect to the location, then yes, you can do that. Silent Image is one of those really good spells that rewards lateral thinking; being able to adapt to unexpected stuff like this on the fly is the mark of a good DM.
Single-class elegance, for one. Certain Advanced Learning choices (i.e. all but Shades) are actually outside of the Shadowcraft Mage's legendary ability to mimic (beguiler-based shadowcraft mages can't even use the super-cheesy Arcane Disciple trick to grab them); this is most dramatic early on with Nightmare Terrain (read: hide in plain sight) and most dramatic later on with Simulacrum). Better skill use. The beguiler's unique (and underrated) capstone ability. The beguiler's skill list and skill points. And most of all, tight feat use (you need four feats - Spell Focus: Illusion, Earth Sense, Heighten Spell, and Earth Spell - to qualify for and employ the shadowcraft mage's signature trick, and not only are those four feats not spent on being GNot There, two of them require 13 Constitution). The list isn't insignificant.
Of course, I probably could have mentioned that as a natural variant, if you aren't relying quite so much on being frustratingly hard to locate. I left it out because that's drifting pretty far from this build's concept and into just about Every Other Gnome Beguiler. That's really it.
If you want to see why that's so significant, try to build this character and actually use its tricks at the table. Surprisingly many of them rely on more than just your magic - your skills (Move Silently and Bluff in particular) and your feats (Spectral Skirmisher + Evasive Reflexes on the active side, Darkstalker and Mobile Spellcasting on the passive) will be getting quite the workout while you remain hidden. If you're doing your job right, you won't be detected at all except, perhaps, for strobe-light-flashes of confusion and whatever illusions you allow to be seen. The Shadowcraft Mage branches out from this: They largely rely on concealment, straight-up Conjuration support, and straightforward, hyper-pseudo-realistic blasting. It's quite the jarring shift in style.
Originally posted by Armisael:
Interesting build...looks pretty hard to pin down, but there's something that worries me about it - namely, how does it deal with enemies who don't try to pierce its hide mod, but simply reduce it outright? If memory doesn't fail me, Glitterdust is a -40 to Hide checks for instance. Granted, you have to get sniped by it, in theory, but in practice there would be ways to arrange that. Anything the Gnome can bring out to defend itself from effects like that one?
PS: Also, voting for Edge of the Light.
Originally posted by Caker:
Gnow make a single classed warmage as effective as this
. A pesky little gnome this one is. I have always felt that beguiler was the best of the three similar classes (dread necro and warmage being the other two). The spell list is just so much better, and the class features are also very "build around me". Plus illusions are a lot of fun in both roleplaying elements and combat.
My vote goes to flip the bird.
Originally posted by draco1119:
I can't belive I forgot to vote
[sblock]Eat Sleep Gank[/sblock].
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
That's a good question - there are some really good anti-stealth effects there (notably Glitterdust and Faerie Fire, largely because of their low levels and huge effects. You have a hard time dealing with them at low levels, like most, but as levels go up, they're less of an issue - the beguiler's spell access gives you a lot of good options at any time, most dramatically on effects like Project Image and, in this build, Nightmare Terrain. These spells, plus your tactics for Mobile Spellcasting, automatic and rapid Silent Spell, mean that most of the time the Gnowhere Gnome isn't even in the battle, and if he is, you're never sure where he is on a given round (you're constantly moving unless you're casting a full round spell, and if you're not using Silence (you're a whisper gnome, remember) or equipment that lets you levitate, Spectral Skirmisher and your racial bonuses give you a big advantage on the Move Silently front). So your first line of defense is to simply be Gnowhere when they look for you with these effects.
If you are successfully pegged with such an effect, I'd suggest looking into specific spell immunities or scrolls. I'm less familiar with this aspect of the build, but that's one of the things that UMD is there for. A specific immunity to Faerie Fire and Glitterdust should protect you from most effects pre-True Seeing, then it gets tricky and you have to rely on Hide or dispels.
We're not miracle workers. The warmage would be fine if damage wasn't quite such a dead strategy, so you're not fighting for a class so much as fighting against the system there.
Originally posted by radicaltaoist:
Tempest, there's a problem with the forum code. I can tell that you started this thread but when I look at the opening post I don't see anything.
With a 1st level spell slot, you can cast a Silenced Ghost Sound and create the noise of footsteps in the area where you want them to waste that spell. Once you have Evasive/Combat Reflexes, you should be hiding among the enemies so that the threat of friendly fire protects you from their area blasting. You should be dropping Fog Clouds and Mind Fogs to create total concealment they can't True See through (reminds me; you need a wand of Listening Lorecall, that spell is handy). You should be giving them Simulacra and Projected Images to send their spells towards. You've got Spider Climb; why are you not on the ceiling? Hell, in tight quarters at the high levels, you should be freaking ethereal.
It is not enough to conceal; you have to mislead. You're not just sitting invisible in a room moving out of the way when they get close and casting save-or-lose spells. You should be spending your actions on spells that cost them more actions to compensate for the effects of yours. You're the spell duel equivalent of a tank: if the whole opposition is spending their actions and spell slots just trying to find you, you're doing your job. You're a beguiler. Freaking beguile already.
In general, against targeted effects like Glitterdust, as long as they can't see you before they cast the spell, you should be fine as long as you keep on the offensive. Glitterdust is frightening to this build, but True Seeing, Mind Blank, and Spell Turning frighten me more.
Originally posted by 123456789blaaa:
Hey I'm a canadian too
.
I vote for flip the bird (it better be what I think it is
).
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
By the time the table loaded, the Gnowhere Gnome isn't there anymore - if he was ever there in the first place (he could have created the table as a distraction to play with expectations). Once you open the thread, he's most likely on another tab. Silently watching.
And judging.
THIS. I'm not as familiar with the beguiler list, but I've seen it in action, and yes, this is how it's done.
Originally posted by Armisael:
So the best place to be when there's a raging hurricane is in the eye of the storm? Heh. That makes perfect sense now that I think about it. Goes to show that sometimes you've got to challenge your preconceptions I think.
Originally posted by 123456789blaaa:
Something I like about this build is the use of "melee" feats like evasive reflexes. You don't often see that in pure casting builds.
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
This is the first build we've done that really makes good use out of that feat. I've been kind of out of the optimization scene for a bit (I took a hiatus when 4e hit, and only got back to it at the end of my master's), and haven't done my reading on other forums, so I don't know if Evasive Reflexes' potential has truly been explored yet. I'm hoping not - it's set fire to our group's creative impulses, and you can expect to see it in other builds soon.
In the case of the Gnowhere Gnome, its use is one of the more creative ones I've seen - mostly because I'd only considered Spectral Skirmisher for its first ability in the past. Linking its second to Evasive Reflexes is downright mean - it's basically Dive for Cover applied to melee attacks, and the only way that the melee attack can actually still hit you is if, for some reason, you step into a second square that the attack hits. (Teleporting War Hulks might be a problem, but then again they usually have awful Will saves, so you can probably make them somebody else's problem while you yourself remain Somebody Else's Problem.)
The only question is if using Evasive Reflexes trips Spectral Skirmisher's "decloak" effect - i.e. if accepting, and then giving up, the opportunity attack counts as taking the opportunity attack and alerting the target to your location. I don't know how all DMs would handle that. (It's sort of like the more common Stormguard Warrior problem, if Channel the Storm counts against your AoO limit or not. The Tome suffers from sloppy editing in points, and some of its more creative replacement effects can introduce problems with some interactions. This is one of them.)
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
Gniice.
For copywright purposes, you might wanna credit
the Mary Corse painting “Untitled (Inner White Band)”
for your figure 1b. dailyserving.com/2008/05/mary-corse/
Of course, you could claim you were just rolE-playing.
(wink)
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
I would, but minimialism (and postmodernism, which have broad similarities when viewed through an empiricist's eyes) fill me with white-hot hatred that burns like the fires of a thousand flaming suns, each of which is made out of other, lesser, suns. That burn. With flames.
The flames are also on fire.
In all honesty, though, the joke is that there is literally nothing in that figure - not even a blank holder (or the equivalent of the usual ninja gag). The Gnowhere Gnome isn't just hidden, he's exactly not where you are looking for him. You're not just playing with perception - you're playing with expectation.
Originally posted by 123456789blaaa:
I can only remember one build (a monk that used the abberrent/vile reach increasing feats) that used it. There may have been others but since I can't remember them they probably weren't that great. The world is your mollusc
.
Also, something a little similar to what you guys are doing here are the Iron Chef Optimization Challenges on Gitp. They take an underused/underpowered prestige classes and judge the resulting builds people send in based on the categories of Originality,Power,Elegance, and Use of Secret Ingredient. Heres an example of the type of quality you can expect from the winning builds: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9321125&postcount=154www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9.... You may want to check them out
.
Originally posted by Caker:
I love the iron chef challenges. It is where one of my favorite builds stemmed from, Fistbear Bearfist. Coincidentally Captain Constituion is essentially a version of that.
Originally posted by radicaltaoist:
Dwarven build? It has that naming convention.
Originally posted by Caker:
The build in question.
Originally posted by radicaltaoist:
CALLED IT!
Originally posted by 123456789blaaa:
I wonder what a battle between this build and the snoipah would be likesyduck.
Originally posted by draco1119:
Would Fade Into Violence actually add anything to this build, or would it just be a dead feat?
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
Dead weight. Not only do your hands need to be empty (no threatened area, so that shuts down the Spectral Skirmisher + Evasive Reflexes combo if you're hiding in the enemy lines), it takes an immediate action to use, only works once per combat, and requires an ally to threaten. At any level it could appear, you'd be better off sticking to what's listed in the main build.
It takes a spectacular feat to bridge tactical boundaries. Evasive Reflexes is one such feat, since Spectral Skirmisher is worth it for the +5 Listen DC anyway and the feat combo shuts down one of the few ways of dealing with invisible foes. Fade Into Violence isn't such a feat. It's useful in the right build - see the Uncanny Trapsmith, for instance, which doesn't need anything in his hands to work - but it just bogs down the Gnowhere Gnome, who's better off misdirecting you in other ways. Usually, those other ways also put you in positions where Fade Into Violence wouldn't work anyway.
Largely, I suspect, like any other battle between an illusionist and a diviner. However, the Snoipah has serious offense that this build lacks - the Gnowhere Gnome is best thought of as a debuffer (neutralizing tactics rather than providing conditions or numerical penalties), so the Snoipah's got a serious advantage (i.e. even if the Gnowhere Gnome wins initiative, the snoipah's likely to survive).
Of course, one of the few weak spots in the Snoipah's spell list is that he lacks True Seeing, so he might end up sniping an image or simulacrum instead, giving away his position (and once the Snoipah's revealed, he's much less scary - still a mean blaster, but he works best from hiding). Furthermore, the Gnowhere Gnome's big advantage is that with a bit of effort, he can remain completely untargetable throughout an entire battle, which cuts back hard on most of the Snoipah's tricks (he packs a few area effects, but they're not his emphasis, as they conflict with professional standards).
I suspect the edge is on the Gnome if combat's already started (depending on how paranoid he is, this could be almost all the time, and the advantage depends entirely on how creative the player is at misdirection), or on the Snoipah if he gets the drop on the Gnome (it's a much more straightforward approach so it depends less on player creativity here).
They're both RT's builds, so I'd like to see what he has to say on the subject.
Originally posted by radicaltaoist:
Not as interesting as you would think; the Snoipah only has a Spot bonus of 23 and a Listen of 21 (to the Gnome's Hide of +52 and Move Silently of +48 with a Spectral Skirmisher penalty on the side). On the inverse, the Gnome only has sensory skill bonuses of +25 each where the Snoipah has stealth bonuses of +43 each. Both builds have Darkstalker and Nondetection, so neither can access buffs that would allow them to see the other. The Snoipah could fill enclosed areas with blasting spells, but it'd be in the Gnome's best interests to vacate such areas with Ethereal Jaunt, and the Snoipah works best in more open areas anyways. The Gnome can't summon anything with Shades that could easily locate the Snoipah, and it'd be in the Snoipah's best interests to just wait out the duration on the summon (or any of the other short-duration beguiler spells the Gnome could bring) instead of giving away his pozzie with a spell. It'd be kinda like two Crusaders beating on each other; nothing happening soon.
A much more interesting battle would be the Gnome versus Rusty. That 'forged has, with the right soulmelds, bonuses to his perception checks that can match the Gnome's stealth checks point for point. And while he's vulnerable on the Will save front, the low-Fort Gnome has just as much to worry about from Rusty's poisons. That could be a tight match.
Originally posted by 123456789blaaa:
I was thinking it would be interesting because (from what I remember) the snoipah also used misdirection and illusions in order to fool the opposition. I was thinking that it would be like each character trying to find the other through layers and layers of illusions.
You guys are the better optimizers by far though (not to mention that you created the builds
). I am proven wrong.
It is really cool and interesting to see you guys talking about the various builds fighting though. Would you mind expanding on the gnome/rusty match? (it would at least help to pass the time until the next showcase).
Originally posted by aelryinth:
I want to see Uberflank, but because he's been around so long, Eat Sleep Gank has me curious now.
==Aelryinth
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
I'd have to think about that pairing more before I elaborate. I tend to think of some of these characters as members of the same team rather than opponents - for instance, while working on recent writeups (though not necessarily the ones for this week), it took me a long time to realize that one of them could beat the DCs on the Uncanny Trapsmith, despite having thought that a different build would make a wonderful complement to the Trapsmith (so the latter was on my mind). This is especially true with some of the simpler, early-maturing builds (i.e. Rusty, the Heavy, and so on), as I've been thinking of them as cohorts.
Although recently, a few of the builds we've produced have caught the eyes of our group DMs, possibly as significant enemies (and at least one currently up for voting has seen successful use as a recurring BBEG - against a party of alpha strikers.)
We found Uberflank (we did a reorg a few weeks ago - Google Docs doesn't like it as you approach some 200-odd tabs of data-rich interlinked spreadsheets in one file - and Uberflank was moved to a different file, that's all). I'll toss him up this Friday along with the winner of the voting.
Speaking of....
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: 2
[RT] Edge of the Light: 1
[TS] Flip the Bird: 2
Although I didn't catch a vote from a few people (i.e. Awaken DM Golem). There's still a whole week to "pass the time" in which to vote, so if you want to sway it one way or the other, go ahead!
Originally posted by zylo_drizzt:
my vote, flip the bird
Originally posted by New-Shadow:
Eat, Sleep, Gank for me.
Originally posted by radicaltaoist:
Two high Will save characters chasing each other through layers of illusions is pretty dull until someone rolls a natural 1, and the snoipah doesn't make significant use of illusions besides Project Image. Two greater invisible projected images shooting at each other? Yeah, no point to it.
As for Rusty versus the Gnome, there's not much more to say. If Rusty has the Bloodtalons, Manticore Belt, and Great Raptor Mask shaped, and one of them bound to a totem chakra, then he can not only match the Gnome's Hide check but also locate him by sight alone, at which point he just starts chucking the poisoned manticore barbs. Shame Rusty can't quite get a bonus high enough to defeat illusions on sight; that'd make this match far more one-sided.
Originally posted by Caker:
Another amusing thing is that Captain Consitution has fort saves high enough to not fail a save against Feral Druid, both using bear warrior to great effect.
Originally posted by radicaltaoist:
But not high enough to resist a staggering strike from Always On Edge, funnily enough.
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
I should have checked the build before suggesting that as an idea - Always on Edge will have trouble hitting a hosed AC around 50 (+34 melee, although the 50 is with gear), and his Staggering Strike won't trigger due to Uncanny Dodge. But that does put in perspective just how powerful Staggering Strike can be.
EDITED, much later: Silly Tempest, Uncanny Dodge wouldn't block Sneak Attack. It'd just mean the attack has to hit a flat footed AC equal to his normal AC. That's still a pain, but possible with the right buffs.
Originally posted by 123456789blaaa:
My OP fu is weak
.
Originally posted by Omen_of_Peace:
I really like the Evasive Reflexes + Spectral Skirmisher combo! Very nice find.
I think the build would benefit from PrCing, but I understand the stylistic choice of going straight Beguiler.
In my mind, Shadowcraft Mage - which has already been mentioned - is very good even without going full throttle (i.e. without Heighten + Earth Spell): you get concealment (useful vs people with See Invisibility, or when you get Glitterdusted), auto-Silencing and auto-Extending of your illusions, and some added versatility via Shadow Illusion.
You delay the Beguiler class features, but in the end you only miss out on 1 Advanced Learning and the capstone (which is great, but I don't build for level 20). All for the price of Spell Focus, which is a good feat for you.
Unseen Seer would also be a good choice too if only for the perma-Undetection. (I didn't double-check how easily Beguilers can qualify, though.)
Glitterdust is actually quite hard to counter to my knowledge: since it's SR: No, specific immunity cannot be obtained. Since it's an area spell, spell turning doesn't work.
So you're left with counterspelling (not this build's focus at all) or immediate-teleporting out (that requires a specific item).
Faerie Fire is SR: Yes so it can be countered.
Invisibility Purge (admittedly a very rarely used, overly specific spell) is pretty much impossible to counter without counterspelling.
"the Gnowhere Gnome is the iconic Beguiler"
Being the nitpicking basterd that I am, I'd qualify this differently: call it the iconic illusionist Beguiler, if you will. There's room for an iconic enchanter Beguiler.
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
That's just the tip of the iceberg. I can't spill the beans just yet, and it'll be all the sweeter if I write about what we've found in the order we developed them... which depends a bit on the outcome from this week's vote. You'll see.
True. I should have been more careful there, especially with flexible base-classes. It's not like the "iconic" fighters are all AoO tanks.
Re: No SR. You can actually block it to some extent, but it requires Use Magic Device for a very specific spell which can fit in a wand.
Originally posted by Omen_of_Peace:
(I'm rather in love with Invisible Spell these days, all the more so since I've never used it in play. Even with a conservative interpretation, it's an illusionist's treasure trove.)
Originally posted by Caker:
I cannot bring myself to use invisible spell even though I know just how good it really is. It is just so borderline cheesy. Because it is +0 adjustment you can pick it up at low levels easily, and nothing at the level really has a way to beat it.
Originally posted by SwordDisciple:
Sorry? Only +50 to Hide?
And Touchsight ruins his sneakiness, along with several mundane circumstances.
But overall I approve
Originally posted by radicaltaoist:
There are more maxed Hide builds, I'll admit, but a +50 range is an order of magnitude beyond what most pre-epic opponents can bring.
Learn 2 Darkstalker, friend. Blindsight is useless against the Gnome.
I've been late before more often than I've been early, and we have a clear favourite this time, so I figured why not get the unveiling a little early?
As usual for the showcase, these builds are intended to spur discussion and perhaps inspire a few people in the spirit of the old CO boards. They come from members of my gaming group - me, Radical Taoist, DisposableHero_, Andarious, Sionnis, and Seishi - and I'll always identify who wrote the build at the start, so do not assume I'm the guy behind all of them (because I'm not!).
Unless otherwise noted, showcase builds use 28 point-buy, and have their snapshots evaluated using fractional base attack / saves (because it simplifies the math). None of them actually rely on fractional to be built, though. The format I use showcases their progression at key levels rather than just presenting the build and showing off a few tricks at level 20; most of these are capable of being played 1-20 if you so choose.
With that out of the way, let's get started. This week, one of RadicalTaoist’s babies is up. He also helped quite a bit with this writeup, which should be clear when the writing style shifts.
------------------
GNOWHERE GNOME
A little man who wasn’t there
Required Books: PHB2, Races of Stone, Lords of Madness, Complete Adventurer, Complete Mage, Tome of Battle, Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium.
Unearthed Arcana used: None!
Background: RT played a single-classed kenku beguiler in a game a while back, capitalizing on beguiler stealth and misdirection when combined with natural kenku psychology and mimicry. The Gnowhere Gnome (yes, the silent G does make it deadlier) is a natural revision of that build – the sneakiest bastard that you’ll gnever find.
The Basics
- Race: Whisper Gnome. Everyone’s favorite elusive little bugger, they’re hard to beat in this area. If you don’t have access to whisper gnomes, any race with decent stealth synergy (goblin, strongheart / ghostwise Halfling, kenku, etc) would be a passable substitute.
- Ability Scores: 6/16/12/16/10/10, after racial modifiers. Intelligence and Dexterity are both quite important; put your 4th and 8th level stat increases into Intelligence, and after that figure out what your gear is likely to provide and pump accordingly.
Skill Gnotes: It goes without saying that you’re investing in Hide and Move Silently. Also max out the rest of the trapscout skills (Disable Device, Listen, Search, and Spot), as well as Concentration and Bluff. Plan yourself more as a scout than a caster on the skill front – you gneed 12 Spellcraft and a reasonable Concentration for your feats, but should be fine elsewhere. You should max out Use Magic Device, but not at first; you only need 12 ranks in Spellcraft, and by then your level-based stat increases should give you more skill points, so ignore UMD from levels 1-7 and then boost it more later on. If you can spare the skill points, look into some skill tricks in the mid-to-late levels; False Theurgy, Timely Misdirect, Group Fake-Out, and Swift Concentration come to mind.
Basic Equipment: Masterwork stealth gear (i.e. your gnome gninja outfit) is a good place to start. A light or heavy crossbow is a good fallback weapon to conserve early slots. You will need to have a melee threatened area later on; any basic weapon will work (dagger for style and preference, but a gauntlet works too – as does any magic staff or rod you’re packing at that point).
Magical Gear Goals: Your mundane and caster gear selection is pretty straightforward. I like the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis here (it gives you a set of particularly nice stealth abilities that combine well with beguiler illusions – the real sell his Hide in Plain Sight, though, and you can get that through one of your Advanced Learnings), and you can save yourself a feat at the late game with the MIC’s Serpent Armor (preferably enhanced with Greater Shadow and Silent Moves). For reasons which will be discussed below, a Circlet of Persuasion is a better buy for you than for most beguilers. Similarly, you might want to pack a runestaff with Greater Dispel Magic on it – shockingly, it’s not on the beguiler list, but it’s highly desirable to have a dispeller who can’t be located, and it gives you some help against Mind Blanks and True Seers.
The Build.
Build Stub: Beguiler 20.
1 – Beguiler – (Armored Mage, Trapfinding) (Darkstalker)
*
[sblock]Do not underestimate the power of this feat. Although it’s online a little early here, it can make all the difference against most anti-stealth measures people will take. [/sblock]
2 – Beguiler – (Cloaked Casting (DC +1), Surprise Casting)
3 – Beguiler – (Advanced Learning: Shock and Awe) (Improved Diversion)
*
[sblock] Shock and Awe is an amazing spell from the Spell Compendium, but it’s normally pretty limited in when it can be employed – surprise rounds only. It’s a great fit for sneaky beguilers like yourself – cast it on whoever will raise the alarm or who can make or break an upcoming fight. Improved Diversion can keep you hidden while you cast – it speeds up your ability to create diversions to the point where you can cast spells and shout “look behind you, a three-headed monkey!” in the same round. You’re unfortunately limited to a 5’ step in hiding, but with Darkstalker and the right use of Silent Image, that will do. [/sblock]
4 – Beguiler –
*
[sblock] Fog Cloud and Invisibility start to compete with Silent Image for providing a hiding place in combat. Bump Int at this level. [/sblock]
5 – Beguiler – (Silent Spell)
*
[sblock] This feat will become much more useful later, but it’s good to have a way to mask your vocal components. [/sblock]
6 – Beguiler – (Surprise Casting (move action)) (Mobile Spellcasting)
*
[sblock] This feat allows you to move and cast a spell as a single standard action. Improved Diversion and the Beguiler’s Surprise Casting allow you to bluff to feint or create a diversion as a move action. You can, in a single round, vanish from the sight any foe without the Sense Motive or Spot to match your Bluff and Hide checks; casting a Fog Cloud or Invisibility and moving is hard to counter when you’ve got Darkstalker. [/sblock]
7 – Beguiler – (Advanced Learning: Phantasmal Strangler)
*
[sblock] This is a lovely save-or-up-yours that grapples for an extended period of time against foes who fail their save. Action advantage and denial of Dex? Hell yes! [/sblock]
8 – Beguiler – (Cloaked Casting (Spell Penetration +2))
*
[sblock] Improved Invisibility appears, allowing you to be more aggressive. Boost your Int score again and start putting ranks into UMD. Freedom of Movement also appears, protecting you from sticky situations.[/sblock]
9 – Beguiler – (Rapid Metamagic)
*
[sblock] And now using Silent Spell no longer costs you bigger actions, freeing you up to move or Bluff. [/sblock]
10 – Beguiler – (Still Spell)
*
[sblock] Not quite as handy as Silent Spell, but hey, when you need to cast a Still Freedom of Movement, you’ll appreciate it. [/sblock]
11 – Beguiler – (Advanced Learning: Nightmare Terrain)
*
[sblock] A magnificent spell; it entangles enemies and lets you hide while observed in its effect. Probably hands down the best spell in your arsenal for when you gneed to both make life difficult for your enemies and disappear GNOW. [/sblock]
12 – Beguiler – (Spectral Skirmisher)
*
[sblock] This PHB2 feat gives you two benefits while invisible. One, enemies take a -5 penalty to Listen checks to locate you. Two, you can make an Attack of Opportunity against any foe who attacks the square you occupy (though it tells them where you are and removes any miss chance). The first benefit is useful now; the second not quite yet. [/sblock]
13 – Beguiler
14 – Beguiler – (Cloaked Casting (DC +2))
*
[sblock] In addition to that nice little DC boost, two things are worth gnoting. First, you gain access to Project Image at this level, which is just unfair in a beguiler’s hands. See how Project Image combines with other illusions. You can create more decoys by casting Greater Mirror Image through your projected image, change its appearance with Disguise Self and make the enemies believe there’s a traitor in their ranks, or just enjoy another invisible point of origin for your spells by casting Greater Invisibility on it. Second, if you’ve been boosting UMD since level 8, by this point you should have a fairly good amount of ranks in there (especially since we haven’t had to spend skill points on Spellcraft for five levels). Get a Circlet of Persuasion and a few useful wands to deal with enemies that are immune to mind-affecting effects. [/sblock]
15 – Beguiler – (Advanced Learning: Simulacrum) (Evasive Reflexes)
*
[sblock] Evasive Reflexes allows us to take a non-provoking 5’ step in place of an AoO. Remember that second benefit to Spectral Skirmisher? Yes, that's right; they attack the square you’re in, and you’re suddenly gnot in it anymore. This is the level by which Serpent Armor becomes very handy, but only wear it if you can get that enchanted with Greater Shadow and Silent Moves enhancements; the primary function of armor for us is to boost our Hide and Move Silently checks. Also take any enhancement that would remove ACP. We don’t care about our Armor Class; a guy who can’t be targeted doesn’t gneed to worry about being hit. Alternatively, with your UMD you can use an Eternal Wand of Heroics to supply yourself with Combat Reflexes, and forget the Serpent Armor.
As a second point, Simulacrum can cause… problems if the DM isn’t prepared. Not only can it produce decoys or body doubles (including duplicates of yourself – see everything up there with Project Image? Now double it and shave off a few levels from the double), it can also duplicate NPCs. Expect a clever player to be able to do great things with this spell.
[/sblock]
16 – Beguiler –
*
[sblock] You acquire Moment of Prescience at this level. If you’ve got a Ring of Evasion, this is the spell that will save your bacon when they stop trying to look for you and start blasting the area with explosive magic. [/sblock]
17 – Beguiler
18 – Beguiler – (Combat Reflexes OR Extraordinary Concentration)
*
[sblock] Combat Reflexes is the last piece of your “gnever touch me” engine. With it, you can use Evasive Reflexes more than once per round, allowing you to dodge multiple attempts to attack your square. If your GM allows you to get Serpent Armor modified with the appropriate enhancements, or if you have an Eternal Wand of Heroics, then you do not need to take Combat Reflexes. In such a case, take the Extraordinary Concentration feat from Complete Adventurer. This lets you concentrate on a spell (like Scintillating Pattern or Major Image) as a move action. Remember Mobile Spellcasting? You can move, cast, and concentrate all in the same round, and that doesn’t even affect your swift action. [/sblock]
19 – Beguiler – (Advanced Learning: Shades)
*
[sblock] Excuse me while I add about half of the Conjuration school to my beguiler spell list. [/sblock]
20 – Beguiler – (Cloaked Casting (SR Breach))
Snapshot: Let’s toss on the +6 items on Constitution, Dexterity, and Intelligence, and assume you pumped Intelligence all the way (i.e. all five pumps into Int, along with a +5 tome, as opposed to amping up Dexterity) – the long game version. We also discussed, above, that your ‘ideal’ armor is probably Serpent Armor (mechanically +1 leather) with Greater Shadow and Greater Silent Moves, and a Circlet of Persuasion. (While this does give the Gnowhere Gnome a bit more equipment than usual for snapshots, I group these particular on the “+skills” heading that I usually use when discussing skillmonkeys, although they are a touch pricier. No one blinked when we gave +Concentration items to Diamond Mind specialists - same thing here). This finishes off with 152 HP, +10 base attack (or ray +16), and saves of 10/12/12, with a spell save DC of 21+spell level (+2 if you catch ‘em off-guard, which is, er, likely) – rather good for a baseline without further gear or buffs on a spellcaster, albiet slightly skimpy on straight-up HP. Skillwise you’re looking at 228 total skill points and no changes in skill list from 1-20: this is plenty to max out Concentration, Hide, Move Silently, Bluff, Disable Device, Search, Spot, Listen, and Use Magic Device, with points left over to hit Spellcraft 12 (required for your feats). This approach leaves you with 9 skill points left, which you can use to pick up four skill tricks; our recommendation is Timely Misdirection, Clarity of Vision, Swift Concentration and any other one that seems useful to you (i.e. Listen to This).
Taking a step back, let’s look at those skill bonuses. Adding in the gear above, synergy, and racial modifiers, you’re looking at trapscout skills of +34/+34 and sense skills of +25/+25, along with a Bluff of +28 and a Use Magic Device of +30. Those are very good. But the real victor here? Stealth. Hide is +52, Move Silently is +48, and you’ve got the full suite of Beguiler misdirections (Project Image, Simulacrum, and assorted Invisibility tricks), plus Darkstalker (+Hide in Plain Sight from Nightmare Terrain or equipment), Shadow Striker + Evasive Reflexes (+Serpent Armor's Combat Reflexes), and Mobile Spellcasting (+Rapid Metamagic +Silent Spell + Still Spell).
Let me put it in perspective. On the left, you have your common ninja. On the right, you have the Gnowhere Gnome.
[ATT align] 
| [ATT align] [//ATT] |
[ATT align]Fig. 1a: Ninja[//ATT] | [ATT align]Fig. 1b: Gnowhere Gnome[//ATT] |
Any questions?
Overall Strengths: You’re gnot exactly an easy guy to pin down. Able to hide from just about anything, including a direct target, and able to do so in the middle of combat in an open plain should you so desire, the Gnowhere Gnome is basically a paragon of what the beguiler can be. It’s also simple enough to fly at any table – and with his skill list, he’d have no problem being welcome at many tables either. Stick him in your stealth/scout roles and watch him shine (…or, okay, gnot see him shine – let’s be honest here); later on his magic grows to the point where he can even play at being a wizard, particularly with Shades or runestaff fun.
Overall Weaknesses: What do your opponents do when they fight someone who can’t be pinned down? That’s right, they nuke the site from orbit bring on the area effects. Your Reflex and Fortitude saves are your natural weak points as a result – they’re all that stand between you and a very painful Fire Storm or Cloudkill. Look into Rings of Evasion, or the much cheaper (but less spammable) Diamond Mind rings linked to the appropriate counter, and don’t be afraid to use that Moment of Prescience effect to stay alive. There’s also the usual issues with beguilers in specific or illusionists/enchanters in general, gnamely, the host of things immune to your spells. You’re better equipped than most to handle that (Use Magic Device), but this can get costly really quick. (Thankfully, you’re Beguiler 20, so SR usually isn’t a factor.)
Variants: As a Beguiler 20, the points of variation here largely fall on feats and Advanced Learning choices. Your feats largely fall in two categories (deceptive spellcasting and stealth/misdirection), and there’s no direct synergy between them that depends on these particular sets of feats (they work well together, but they don’t depend on each other), you can rotate them around as you see fit. The only potential problem is that with so (relatively) few degrees of freedom, the further you deviate, the more likely it is to run into another beguiler 20 build.
There you have it. I think, quite possibly, that the Gnowhere Gnome is the iconic Beguiler. Go ahead, tell us how you’d beat this.
…And gno apologies from us on the random silent G. It’s required, ye’see.
Looking for feedback, and, as always, a vote!
Next up: Take your pick from [DH] Eat Sleep Gank, [RT] Edge of the Light, and - shock of shocks - [TS] Flip the Bird. (Yes, it's been too long since I contributed a build!). Depending on how on the ball we are this week, I'll try to get [AR] Uberflank up as well.
And re: the other forums: Due to circumstances both unforeseeable and predictable (read: we're all Canadian, and last week was our Thanksgiving holiday), our group didn't meet last week for game night, which means the final say is a bit delayed. Not forgotten, not procrastinated, just delayed. This really should be the last delay; you'll get an answer before the next build is showcased.
Originally posted by draco1119:
Very nice. Too bad I don't have LoM. :/
I've got a question about the use of Silent Image: is it possible to place it (for example) hiding behind a bush on the opposit side of a clearing? The intent would be to make it appear to be a sneaky character who succeeded on a Move Silently check, but failed the Hide check.
Originally posted by draco1119:
Oh, and why no Shadowcraft Mage?
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
It only uses Darkstalker from there, and that feat is extremely straightforward (namely, Hide works against special sense techniques such as Scent, Blindsense, and Tremorsense). Basically the only thing that'll spot you is feat-exclusive sensory measures like Mindsight or Life Sense.
If you have line of sight and line of effect to the location, then yes, you can do that. Silent Image is one of those really good spells that rewards lateral thinking; being able to adapt to unexpected stuff like this on the fly is the mark of a good DM.
Single-class elegance, for one. Certain Advanced Learning choices (i.e. all but Shades) are actually outside of the Shadowcraft Mage's legendary ability to mimic (beguiler-based shadowcraft mages can't even use the super-cheesy Arcane Disciple trick to grab them); this is most dramatic early on with Nightmare Terrain (read: hide in plain sight) and most dramatic later on with Simulacrum). Better skill use. The beguiler's unique (and underrated) capstone ability. The beguiler's skill list and skill points. And most of all, tight feat use (you need four feats - Spell Focus: Illusion, Earth Sense, Heighten Spell, and Earth Spell - to qualify for and employ the shadowcraft mage's signature trick, and not only are those four feats not spent on being GNot There, two of them require 13 Constitution). The list isn't insignificant.
Of course, I probably could have mentioned that as a natural variant, if you aren't relying quite so much on being frustratingly hard to locate. I left it out because that's drifting pretty far from this build's concept and into just about Every Other Gnome Beguiler. That's really it.
If you want to see why that's so significant, try to build this character and actually use its tricks at the table. Surprisingly many of them rely on more than just your magic - your skills (Move Silently and Bluff in particular) and your feats (Spectral Skirmisher + Evasive Reflexes on the active side, Darkstalker and Mobile Spellcasting on the passive) will be getting quite the workout while you remain hidden. If you're doing your job right, you won't be detected at all except, perhaps, for strobe-light-flashes of confusion and whatever illusions you allow to be seen. The Shadowcraft Mage branches out from this: They largely rely on concealment, straight-up Conjuration support, and straightforward, hyper-pseudo-realistic blasting. It's quite the jarring shift in style.
Originally posted by Armisael:
Interesting build...looks pretty hard to pin down, but there's something that worries me about it - namely, how does it deal with enemies who don't try to pierce its hide mod, but simply reduce it outright? If memory doesn't fail me, Glitterdust is a -40 to Hide checks for instance. Granted, you have to get sniped by it, in theory, but in practice there would be ways to arrange that. Anything the Gnome can bring out to defend itself from effects like that one?
PS: Also, voting for Edge of the Light.
Originally posted by Caker:
Gnow make a single classed warmage as effective as this
. A pesky little gnome this one is. I have always felt that beguiler was the best of the three similar classes (dread necro and warmage being the other two). The spell list is just so much better, and the class features are also very "build around me". Plus illusions are a lot of fun in both roleplaying elements and combat.My vote goes to flip the bird.
Originally posted by draco1119:
I can't belive I forgot to vote
[sblock]Eat Sleep Gank[/sblock].
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
That's a good question - there are some really good anti-stealth effects there (notably Glitterdust and Faerie Fire, largely because of their low levels and huge effects. You have a hard time dealing with them at low levels, like most, but as levels go up, they're less of an issue - the beguiler's spell access gives you a lot of good options at any time, most dramatically on effects like Project Image and, in this build, Nightmare Terrain. These spells, plus your tactics for Mobile Spellcasting, automatic and rapid Silent Spell, mean that most of the time the Gnowhere Gnome isn't even in the battle, and if he is, you're never sure where he is on a given round (you're constantly moving unless you're casting a full round spell, and if you're not using Silence (you're a whisper gnome, remember) or equipment that lets you levitate, Spectral Skirmisher and your racial bonuses give you a big advantage on the Move Silently front). So your first line of defense is to simply be Gnowhere when they look for you with these effects.
If you are successfully pegged with such an effect, I'd suggest looking into specific spell immunities or scrolls. I'm less familiar with this aspect of the build, but that's one of the things that UMD is there for. A specific immunity to Faerie Fire and Glitterdust should protect you from most effects pre-True Seeing, then it gets tricky and you have to rely on Hide or dispels.
Gnow make a single classed warmage as effective as this
We're not miracle workers. The warmage would be fine if damage wasn't quite such a dead strategy, so you're not fighting for a class so much as fighting against the system there.
Originally posted by radicaltaoist:
Tempest, there's a problem with the forum code. I can tell that you started this thread but when I look at the opening post I don't see anything.
With a 1st level spell slot, you can cast a Silenced Ghost Sound and create the noise of footsteps in the area where you want them to waste that spell. Once you have Evasive/Combat Reflexes, you should be hiding among the enemies so that the threat of friendly fire protects you from their area blasting. You should be dropping Fog Clouds and Mind Fogs to create total concealment they can't True See through (reminds me; you need a wand of Listening Lorecall, that spell is handy). You should be giving them Simulacra and Projected Images to send their spells towards. You've got Spider Climb; why are you not on the ceiling? Hell, in tight quarters at the high levels, you should be freaking ethereal.
It is not enough to conceal; you have to mislead. You're not just sitting invisible in a room moving out of the way when they get close and casting save-or-lose spells. You should be spending your actions on spells that cost them more actions to compensate for the effects of yours. You're the spell duel equivalent of a tank: if the whole opposition is spending their actions and spell slots just trying to find you, you're doing your job. You're a beguiler. Freaking beguile already.
In general, against targeted effects like Glitterdust, as long as they can't see you before they cast the spell, you should be fine as long as you keep on the offensive. Glitterdust is frightening to this build, but True Seeing, Mind Blank, and Spell Turning frighten me more.
Originally posted by 123456789blaaa:
Hey I'm a canadian too
I vote for flip the bird (it better be what I think it is
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
By the time the table loaded, the Gnowhere Gnome isn't there anymore - if he was ever there in the first place (he could have created the table as a distraction to play with expectations). Once you open the thread, he's most likely on another tab. Silently watching.
And judging.
THIS. I'm not as familiar with the beguiler list, but I've seen it in action, and yes, this is how it's done.
Originally posted by Armisael:
So the best place to be when there's a raging hurricane is in the eye of the storm? Heh. That makes perfect sense now that I think about it. Goes to show that sometimes you've got to challenge your preconceptions I think.
Originally posted by 123456789blaaa:
Something I like about this build is the use of "melee" feats like evasive reflexes. You don't often see that in pure casting builds.
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
This is the first build we've done that really makes good use out of that feat. I've been kind of out of the optimization scene for a bit (I took a hiatus when 4e hit, and only got back to it at the end of my master's), and haven't done my reading on other forums, so I don't know if Evasive Reflexes' potential has truly been explored yet. I'm hoping not - it's set fire to our group's creative impulses, and you can expect to see it in other builds soon.
In the case of the Gnowhere Gnome, its use is one of the more creative ones I've seen - mostly because I'd only considered Spectral Skirmisher for its first ability in the past. Linking its second to Evasive Reflexes is downright mean - it's basically Dive for Cover applied to melee attacks, and the only way that the melee attack can actually still hit you is if, for some reason, you step into a second square that the attack hits. (Teleporting War Hulks might be a problem, but then again they usually have awful Will saves, so you can probably make them somebody else's problem while you yourself remain Somebody Else's Problem.)
The only question is if using Evasive Reflexes trips Spectral Skirmisher's "decloak" effect - i.e. if accepting, and then giving up, the opportunity attack counts as taking the opportunity attack and alerting the target to your location. I don't know how all DMs would handle that. (It's sort of like the more common Stormguard Warrior problem, if Channel the Storm counts against your AoO limit or not. The Tome suffers from sloppy editing in points, and some of its more creative replacement effects can introduce problems with some interactions. This is one of them.)
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
Gniice.
For copywright purposes, you might wanna credit
the Mary Corse painting “Untitled (Inner White Band)”
for your figure 1b. dailyserving.com/2008/05/mary-corse/
Of course, you could claim you were just rolE-playing.
(wink)
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
I would, but minimialism (and postmodernism, which have broad similarities when viewed through an empiricist's eyes) fill me with white-hot hatred that burns like the fires of a thousand flaming suns, each of which is made out of other, lesser, suns. That burn. With flames.
The flames are also on fire.
In all honesty, though, the joke is that there is literally nothing in that figure - not even a blank holder (or the equivalent of the usual ninja gag). The Gnowhere Gnome isn't just hidden, he's exactly not where you are looking for him. You're not just playing with perception - you're playing with expectation.
Originally posted by 123456789blaaa:
I can only remember one build (a monk that used the abberrent/vile reach increasing feats) that used it. There may have been others but since I can't remember them they probably weren't that great. The world is your mollusc
Also, something a little similar to what you guys are doing here are the Iron Chef Optimization Challenges on Gitp. They take an underused/underpowered prestige classes and judge the resulting builds people send in based on the categories of Originality,Power,Elegance, and Use of Secret Ingredient. Heres an example of the type of quality you can expect from the winning builds: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9321125&postcount=154www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9.... You may want to check them out
Originally posted by Caker:
I love the iron chef challenges. It is where one of my favorite builds stemmed from, Fistbear Bearfist. Coincidentally Captain Constituion is essentially a version of that.
Originally posted by radicaltaoist:
Dwarven build? It has that naming convention.
Originally posted by Caker:
The build in question.
Originally posted by radicaltaoist:
CALLED IT!
Originally posted by 123456789blaaa:
I wonder what a battle between this build and the snoipah would be like
syduck.Originally posted by draco1119:
Would Fade Into Violence actually add anything to this build, or would it just be a dead feat?
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
Dead weight. Not only do your hands need to be empty (no threatened area, so that shuts down the Spectral Skirmisher + Evasive Reflexes combo if you're hiding in the enemy lines), it takes an immediate action to use, only works once per combat, and requires an ally to threaten. At any level it could appear, you'd be better off sticking to what's listed in the main build.
It takes a spectacular feat to bridge tactical boundaries. Evasive Reflexes is one such feat, since Spectral Skirmisher is worth it for the +5 Listen DC anyway and the feat combo shuts down one of the few ways of dealing with invisible foes. Fade Into Violence isn't such a feat. It's useful in the right build - see the Uncanny Trapsmith, for instance, which doesn't need anything in his hands to work - but it just bogs down the Gnowhere Gnome, who's better off misdirecting you in other ways. Usually, those other ways also put you in positions where Fade Into Violence wouldn't work anyway.
I wonder what a battle between this build and the snoipah would be like
Largely, I suspect, like any other battle between an illusionist and a diviner. However, the Snoipah has serious offense that this build lacks - the Gnowhere Gnome is best thought of as a debuffer (neutralizing tactics rather than providing conditions or numerical penalties), so the Snoipah's got a serious advantage (i.e. even if the Gnowhere Gnome wins initiative, the snoipah's likely to survive).
Of course, one of the few weak spots in the Snoipah's spell list is that he lacks True Seeing, so he might end up sniping an image or simulacrum instead, giving away his position (and once the Snoipah's revealed, he's much less scary - still a mean blaster, but he works best from hiding). Furthermore, the Gnowhere Gnome's big advantage is that with a bit of effort, he can remain completely untargetable throughout an entire battle, which cuts back hard on most of the Snoipah's tricks (he packs a few area effects, but they're not his emphasis, as they conflict with professional standards).
I suspect the edge is on the Gnome if combat's already started (depending on how paranoid he is, this could be almost all the time, and the advantage depends entirely on how creative the player is at misdirection), or on the Snoipah if he gets the drop on the Gnome (it's a much more straightforward approach so it depends less on player creativity here).
They're both RT's builds, so I'd like to see what he has to say on the subject.
Originally posted by radicaltaoist:
I wonder what a battle between this build and the snoipah would be like
Not as interesting as you would think; the Snoipah only has a Spot bonus of 23 and a Listen of 21 (to the Gnome's Hide of +52 and Move Silently of +48 with a Spectral Skirmisher penalty on the side). On the inverse, the Gnome only has sensory skill bonuses of +25 each where the Snoipah has stealth bonuses of +43 each. Both builds have Darkstalker and Nondetection, so neither can access buffs that would allow them to see the other. The Snoipah could fill enclosed areas with blasting spells, but it'd be in the Gnome's best interests to vacate such areas with Ethereal Jaunt, and the Snoipah works best in more open areas anyways. The Gnome can't summon anything with Shades that could easily locate the Snoipah, and it'd be in the Snoipah's best interests to just wait out the duration on the summon (or any of the other short-duration beguiler spells the Gnome could bring) instead of giving away his pozzie with a spell. It'd be kinda like two Crusaders beating on each other; nothing happening soon.
A much more interesting battle would be the Gnome versus Rusty. That 'forged has, with the right soulmelds, bonuses to his perception checks that can match the Gnome's stealth checks point for point. And while he's vulnerable on the Will save front, the low-Fort Gnome has just as much to worry about from Rusty's poisons. That could be a tight match.
Originally posted by 123456789blaaa:
I wonder what a battle between this build and the snoipah would be like
Not as interesting as you would think; the Snoipah only has a Spot bonus of 23 and a Listen of 21 (to the Gnome's Hide of +52 and Move Silently of +48 with a Spectral Skirmisher penalty on the side). On the inverse, the Gnome only has sensory skill bonuses of +25 each where the Snoipah has stealth bonuses of +43 each. Both builds have Darkstalker and Nondetection, so neither can access buffs that would allow them to see the other. The Snoipah could fill enclosed areas with blasting spells, but it'd be in the Gnome's best interests to vacate such areas with Ethereal Jaunt, and the Snoipah works best in more open areas anyways. The Gnome can't summon anything with Shades that could easily locate the Snoipah, and it'd be in the Snoipah's best interests to just wait out the duration on the summon (or any of the other short-duration beguiler spells the Gnome could bring) instead of giving away his pozzie with a spell. It'd be kinda like two Crusaders beating on each other; nothing happening soon.
A much more interesting battle would be the Gnome versus Rusty. That 'forged has, with the right soulmelds, bonuses to his perception checks that can match the Gnome's stealth checks point for point. And while he's vulnerable on the Will save front, the low-Fort Gnome has just as much to worry about from Rusty's poisons. That could be a tight match.
I was thinking it would be interesting because (from what I remember) the snoipah also used misdirection and illusions in order to fool the opposition. I was thinking that it would be like each character trying to find the other through layers and layers of illusions.
You guys are the better optimizers by far though (not to mention that you created the builds
It is really cool and interesting to see you guys talking about the various builds fighting though. Would you mind expanding on the gnome/rusty match? (it would at least help to pass the time until the next showcase).
Originally posted by aelryinth:
I want to see Uberflank, but because he's been around so long, Eat Sleep Gank has me curious now.
==Aelryinth
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
I'd have to think about that pairing more before I elaborate. I tend to think of some of these characters as members of the same team rather than opponents - for instance, while working on recent writeups (though not necessarily the ones for this week), it took me a long time to realize that one of them could beat the DCs on the Uncanny Trapsmith, despite having thought that a different build would make a wonderful complement to the Trapsmith (so the latter was on my mind). This is especially true with some of the simpler, early-maturing builds (i.e. Rusty, the Heavy, and so on), as I've been thinking of them as cohorts.
Although recently, a few of the builds we've produced have caught the eyes of our group DMs, possibly as significant enemies (and at least one currently up for voting has seen successful use as a recurring BBEG - against a party of alpha strikers.)
We found Uberflank (we did a reorg a few weeks ago - Google Docs doesn't like it as you approach some 200-odd tabs of data-rich interlinked spreadsheets in one file - and Uberflank was moved to a different file, that's all). I'll toss him up this Friday along with the winner of the voting.
Speaking of....
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: 2
[RT] Edge of the Light: 1
[TS] Flip the Bird: 2
Although I didn't catch a vote from a few people (i.e. Awaken DM Golem). There's still a whole week to "pass the time" in which to vote, so if you want to sway it one way or the other, go ahead!
Originally posted by zylo_drizzt:
my vote, flip the bird
Originally posted by New-Shadow:
Eat, Sleep, Gank for me.
Originally posted by radicaltaoist:
I was thinking it would be interesting because (from what I remember) the snoipah also used misdirection and illusions in order to fool the opposition. I was thinking that it would be like each character trying to find the other through layers and layers of illusions.
You guys are the better optimizers by far though (not to mention that you created the builds). I am proven wrong.
It is really cool and interesting to see you guys talking about the various builds fighting though. Would you mind expanding on the gnome/rusty match? (it would at least help to pass the time until the next showcase).
Two high Will save characters chasing each other through layers of illusions is pretty dull until someone rolls a natural 1, and the snoipah doesn't make significant use of illusions besides Project Image. Two greater invisible projected images shooting at each other? Yeah, no point to it.
As for Rusty versus the Gnome, there's not much more to say. If Rusty has the Bloodtalons, Manticore Belt, and Great Raptor Mask shaped, and one of them bound to a totem chakra, then he can not only match the Gnome's Hide check but also locate him by sight alone, at which point he just starts chucking the poisoned manticore barbs. Shame Rusty can't quite get a bonus high enough to defeat illusions on sight; that'd make this match far more one-sided.
Originally posted by Caker:
Another amusing thing is that Captain Consitution has fort saves high enough to not fail a save against Feral Druid, both using bear warrior to great effect.
Originally posted by radicaltaoist:
But not high enough to resist a staggering strike from Always On Edge, funnily enough.
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
I should have checked the build before suggesting that as an idea - Always on Edge will have trouble hitting a hosed AC around 50 (+34 melee, although the 50 is with gear), and his Staggering Strike won't trigger due to Uncanny Dodge. But that does put in perspective just how powerful Staggering Strike can be.
EDITED, much later: Silly Tempest, Uncanny Dodge wouldn't block Sneak Attack. It'd just mean the attack has to hit a flat footed AC equal to his normal AC. That's still a pain, but possible with the right buffs.
Originally posted by 123456789blaaa:
My OP fu is weak
Originally posted by Omen_of_Peace:
I really like the Evasive Reflexes + Spectral Skirmisher combo! Very nice find.
I think the build would benefit from PrCing, but I understand the stylistic choice of going straight Beguiler.
In my mind, Shadowcraft Mage - which has already been mentioned - is very good even without going full throttle (i.e. without Heighten + Earth Spell): you get concealment (useful vs people with See Invisibility, or when you get Glitterdusted), auto-Silencing and auto-Extending of your illusions, and some added versatility via Shadow Illusion.
You delay the Beguiler class features, but in the end you only miss out on 1 Advanced Learning and the capstone (which is great, but I don't build for level 20). All for the price of Spell Focus, which is a good feat for you.
Unseen Seer would also be a good choice too if only for the perma-Undetection. (I didn't double-check how easily Beguilers can qualify, though.)
Glitterdust is actually quite hard to counter to my knowledge: since it's SR: No, specific immunity cannot be obtained. Since it's an area spell, spell turning doesn't work.
So you're left with counterspelling (not this build's focus at all) or immediate-teleporting out (that requires a specific item).
Faerie Fire is SR: Yes so it can be countered.
Invisibility Purge (admittedly a very rarely used, overly specific spell) is pretty much impossible to counter without counterspelling.
"the Gnowhere Gnome is the iconic Beguiler"
Being the nitpicking basterd that I am, I'd qualify this differently: call it the iconic illusionist Beguiler, if you will. There's room for an iconic enchanter Beguiler.
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
I really like the Evasive Reflexes + Spectral Skirmisher combo! Very nice find.
That's just the tip of the iceberg. I can't spill the beans just yet, and it'll be all the sweeter if I write about what we've found in the order we developed them... which depends a bit on the outcome from this week's vote. You'll see.
"the Gnowhere Gnome is the iconic Beguiler"
Being the nitpicking basterd that I am, I'd qualify this differently: call it the iconic illusionist Beguiler, if you will. There's room for an iconic enchanter Beguiler.
True. I should have been more careful there, especially with flexible base-classes. It's not like the "iconic" fighters are all AoO tanks.
Re: No SR. You can actually block it to some extent, but it requires Use Magic Device for a very specific spell which can fit in a wand.
Originally posted by Omen_of_Peace:
Ah, indeed, good call. The Globe being visible is a problem, but Invisible Spell can help there.
(I'm rather in love with Invisible Spell these days, all the more so since I've never used it in play. Even with a conservative interpretation, it's an illusionist's treasure trove.)
Originally posted by Caker:
I cannot bring myself to use invisible spell even though I know just how good it really is. It is just so borderline cheesy. Because it is +0 adjustment you can pick it up at low levels easily, and nothing at the level really has a way to beat it.
Originally posted by SwordDisciple:
Sorry? Only +50 to Hide?
And Touchsight ruins his sneakiness, along with several mundane circumstances.
But overall I approve
Originally posted by radicaltaoist:
There are more maxed Hide builds, I'll admit, but a +50 range is an order of magnitude beyond what most pre-epic opponents can bring.
Learn 2 Darkstalker, friend. Blindsight is useless against the Gnome.
