Welcome to the 5th anniversary!

[howandwhy99]

Guys, you have to live with the new default for awhile - I have to insure the template changes that are about to be made work in one place before I extrapolate them to other styles.

No Problem. Ranting on the internet is common enough I think we can take it. Plus the sheer amount of work you do around this place you deserve to let off steam.

I use the stealth set at work like many others do I guess. As it's the holidays it really isn't a problem right now. In fact, I've gone electric blue and am loving it.

Keeping the site up sounds more important anyways.

 

[Michael Morris]

<snip>

Here are some sites I feel are exemplary of quality deisgn, to give you an idea where I'm coming from. These are mostly professional design firms.

<snip>

Well, I was dissappointed, but now I am pissed. You're implying that it isn't professional!? That I don't know what the Hell I'm doing but need to have my hand held even after redesigning - on contract - the entire Wizard's of the Coast web board?

 

[jezter6]

Hey Mike, you know me in person, so you know I'm not half the rude buttwipe I am on here some days.

I know you do hard work, and it does look spiffy. The only problem I have is the one good style (default black that we're all used to) is always the one getting tweaked and changed during times. If you made the default black a separate entity, then played around with a 'new' default, then I'm sure many of us would be happy. As it is now, the only non-super colored w/ texturized backgrounds is white stealth, which is just the inverse of what we've all known and loved for many years.

I have no problem with you toying with new styles, and making them available for most of the people, just don't remove a good style that we're all familiar with to bring in the fancy and bold stuff.

At the WotC boards, you made the old ugly default style a quick change for those that didn't like the high graphics and wild colors...do the same here and make sure that the old options that work aren't constantly being changed, but feel free to bring new customs in for those that want them. Keep everyone happy that way.

And since you're the boards guru at 2 of the largest RPG sites on the net, I'd say you're plenty 'professional' in the terms of what you do, and you do pretty well at it. Criticism will always come during change, and unless there's no other option, old settings should always be available to those who are scared of change (like me).

And to the poster who said it's slow on high speed connection, try running it at 28.8 dialup and tell me how slow it is.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Well, I'll go against the grain here and say that overall I like the new look. It does not seem any more difficult to read for me, and it seems to load at the same speed it always did (which I've always thought was more the function of the server and with the forthcoming upgrade that should improve).

And remember a prime customer service rule: people are always more likely to complain than they are to praise.

 

[RuminDange]

And to the poster who said it's slow on high speed connection, try running it at 28.8 dialup and tell me how slow it is.

Ouch! And I thought my connection was bad. 28.8 would suck a lot.
I've got cable at home and have no problem with the new look. I like it and it is fast to load. But the wireless high speed (unreliable crappy) connection I use at work causes problems with sites with heavy graphics or textures.
My only complaint, if you want to call it that, is not having the classic style to fall back too when on the slower connection so that I can get my ENWorld daily fix.

RD

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I've been using the new Default style since...ooh, when was it that it was first set up, Michael? A couple months or so now. Close at least.

At first, it bothered me because it was so close but so different. Yet I kept using it, and now I've grown to absolutely love it. People are talking of professionalism and such in web design. People, IMO, the site looks MORE professional like this. Its not just a blank flat color(which isn't bad), and it has more life to it. Five years and a site needs a good kick. And if you don't like it...well, live with it until the 'old' Default is back. Honestly, it isn't nearly as bad as some of you seem to be acting, and trust me on this...Michael has been working his BUTT off on this style to get it just right.

 

[Turanil]

That said, I'm finding that the PHB theme is working for me and keeping things readable.

I'm sorry you feel disappointed, Michael. I hate to be Mr. Crabby. Still, I want to contribute opinions that I hope will make ENWorld better for everyone, and I can't help but comment that the new uber-textured look is just very hard on my eyes, looks dated, and the non-color-coded, textured post icons are proving less helpful to me.

I second these comments.

Nonetheless, thanks for all the great job you do for free on Enworld. I can clearly see you spent much time on it, and know how it is then to hear about people's complaint, especially when those people don't do anything themselves to improve the site. In any case, even if I said that the new default style is tiring on my eyes, I must say the new PHB style, on the other hand, is very well done.

 

[barsoomcore]

Hey, MM, I'm sorry you feel underappreciated. If you're not enjoying it, don't do it.

I believe you that it's a huge amount of effort to make these new styles. Which leads back to my original question: why do it if the current style is working okay? I mean, if there isn't a compelling reason to make the change, why bother, given that it's so much effort?

Nothing looks more mechanical than repeating patterns -- the textures currently part of this theme look MORE mechanical than the flat colours we had before, not less. Take a look at the great dialog sites on the net -- SlashDot, A List Apart, Wikipedia. Look at the Creative Commons site. Heck, look at Google, probably the most useful site on the entire internet. They don't look mechanical, they look SIMPLE. USEFUL. COMFORTABLE. They don't sprawl with repetitive textures

I spend a lot of time on ENWorld -- and I PAY to do so. When you go ahead and make a bunch of changes without consulting me, and make the site significantly less useful to me, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to tell you I'm happy about it. If that makes you angry, well, again I'm sorry. But like buzz and Turanil have said, I consider it important that I contribute my opinions to the discussion on how this site should look. You're free to ignore them, of course.

Nobody knows better than I how much work you're putting into this, Mike. I'm not trying to call you names. I'm trying to tell you that this appearance makes the site less useful to me.

 

[drakhe]

MM, you got my thumbs up!

First of all, MM, you've got my thumbs up. I'm in IT also (not exactly webdesign but close enough) and I know what levels of effort are required and then some. I also have no problem whatsoever with the new style. It sure is as readable as the previous default and I'm guessing that with over 20000 members, there would be some complaints if you go back. With 20000+ members, there's going to be comments whatever you do.

BTW: paying to visit ENWorld in my opinion does not entitle you to anything. This site was created to provide a forum for DnD Enthousiasts and like minded folks to share experiences and information. It's kept running by the hard work of a bunch of volunteers [a tip of me hat to each and every one of you, you know who you are]. That people pay to support the site is at least in my case just because I recognize the hard work and because I want to be able to enjoy ENWorld for a long time to come. I pay to reward these volunteers and to help keep ENWorld afloat. I do not expect anything else in return. Heck, if ENWorld would disappear tomorrow, I would be sad because the forum was gone, but not for the money I had spent on the site. Even though I might have an oppinion and like or dislike some decisions concerning the site, and might even want to voice them (in a way that's appropriate for Eric's Gran offcourse ), IMHO the money I volunteer does not give me any rights other than to come here to enjoy and participate in this great comunity.

So three cheers for the ENWorld Staff and an extra one for MM!

 

[jezter6]

I second these comments.

Nonetheless, thanks for all the great job you do for free on Enworld. I can clearly see you spent much time on it, and know how it is then to hear about people's complaint, especially when those people don't do anything themselves to improve the site. In any case, even if I said that the new default style is tiring on my eyes, I must say the new PHB style, on the other hand, is very well done.

See, there's the point that gets me thinking...the last 2 times I've seen major design changes (and said my comments about them), they were changes that just appeared. Nobody else has control over site design and changes are not publicised in advance, and the one style I would bet most people use, is the one always changing.

If there was a "what do you think would look neato" poll posted around the forums (and not just meta, because many people don't hang out and watch threads here) that everyone can contribute, it would make people feel more like a part of changes (and give plenty of warning in advance). Then everyone is aware of upcoming changes, as well as being able to have an opinion about them before the hard work gets done to implement something that people don't like.

If I would have had the chance to see the new post globes (even just a couple of them) outside of being forced to, I could have said why I don't like them, and others who posted in the post-globe change thread could have as well, and Mike wouldn't have had to work so hard to hear people complain. If this change was posted somewhere obvious saying "hey, look what we're going to do to the DEFAULT style" then we could have asked Mike to at least keep a copy of default black instead of having to go back and fix it for everyone. That and we would have known change was coming in advance.

That's just my thoughts.