[WFRP] Hogshead Closes Doors

[ColonelHardisson]

Mike, I accept what you say because you're saying it, but the press release does seem at least a bit snide.

 

[seasong]

About the 'high concept system art' vs 'd20 masses' commentary, above...

Hogshead's quote is reasonably clear about discussing the specialty games market. I don't think there's any bitterness about d20 to be found in that statement. Nor is d20 likely to impact specialty games in any real way - like they said (and I'm inclined to think it's truth), they're decently solvent.

And if they've gone as far as they can go with Nobilis and De Profundis, well, get out of the way so we have room for someone who can go further.

 

[whisper_jeff]

To everyone trash-talking James and the rest of Hogshead, may your game collection burst into flames.

James is one of the nicest men in the industry and this place is now worse without Hogshead. There are many companies I would be happy to see close up shop - Hogshead was never one of them. They have always produced quality, innovative products that challenged the norms by which most gamers enjoyed their hobby, making them better gamers for it.

Thankfully, James will continue to be involved with Nobilis (along with Rebecca and Bruce), but his absence from the industry as a whole makes the gaming landscape a worse place than it was with him.

Though I am thrilled that GOO will be publishing Nobilis, I am greatly saddened as to why it is happening. Bittersweet barely describes it.

Jeff Mackintosh

[[edited to pull my sig so it's clear this is my _personal_ opinion on the thread]]

 

[Ebeneezer]

I also have to say that I'm delighted that Nobilis now has a home at GOO, renowned as publishers of vaporware. That way we won't need to see any more turgid, overwritten and overhyped product.

Well, we'll still need to put up with the hype, I guess.

 

[mearls]

Mike, I accept what you say because you're saying it, but the press release does seem at least a bit snide.

Well, I don't know James well enough to say exactly what he was thinking or feeling when he closed down Hogshead, but I think it's understandable that in the aftermath of closing down any business there's bound to be some bitterness or bad feelings. I mean, it's not exactly something that people want to have happen.

But, I very clearly remember talking about D&D with James when he passed through NYC last year. If I thought he had any problems with it or its players, I wouldn't have worked with him. I don't work with companies that cop attitudes about D&D. That's symptom #1 of cluelessness, incompetence, and eventual ruin.

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

To everyone trash-talking James and the rest of Hogshead, may your game collection burst into flames.

James is one of the nicest men in the industry and this place is now worse without Hogshead.

Having been on the receiving end of one of his tirades on RPG.net, I have to say that if he was one the nicest men in the industry, his on-line persona (and the persona of his hirelings) did not reflect it. By contrast, my interactions with Lynn Willis, Monte Cook, Andy Collins, and other d20 writers and publishers have found them to be gracious, intelligent, and respectful of fans and other writers. If this attitude difference is representative of the "independent artists" versus "the d20 drones", I have no doubt as to which side I will be rooting for.

I have no axe to grind with Hogshead, but as a former customer, their attitude on the 'net was a definite turnoff, and contributed in small way to my decision to continually defer purchasing their products.

 

[jasper]

OKAY i read their website. Never heard of them or did not attach a name with a game.
So they destroyed stock????? I hope they mean rebought stock and will not reissue it.

So they did warhammer? another game I did not get into.

But what will they do once they clear out their inventory???

Sounds like we going out of business.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I hope I haven't been perceived as slamming Hogshead. I still think of them as a white knight as far as WHFRP is concerned. I'm not talking about talent or what they've delivered to us gamers.

I only pointed out that hint of Wyck-like snarkiness in his sign-off.

I guess I don't understand why they'd cop to being creatively bankrupt (I paraphrase from memory) and then off-handedly condemn the rest of us to the status quo. If you have ideas, and people are clearly still paying for them, by all means keep doing what you're doing.

Whatever... Kudos for ending on a "high note," and good luck to them in the next endeavor.


Wulf

 

[whisper_jeff]

I also have to say that I'm delighted that Nobilis now has a home at GOO, renowned as publishers of vaporware.

Please, examples to back up your claim. Facts are always nice when slinging insults, after all.

 

[Vrylakos]

iirc, around the time they released Nobilis, some of the hogshead folks got pretty hot under the collar on RPG.net regarding negative comments about Nobilis. They pretty much lost my respect right there and then. Bunch of pretentious "RPGs as 'art'" asshats.

I only wish that you could buy Jolly Ranchers in the shape of little d20s. I'd send them a pound of Apple flavoured d20s with a note attached reading: "How do you like them apples?"

I followed the many RPG.net Nobilis reviews, and the many many many threads that followed.

Here's a few, but not all:
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_6421.html
(In which James Wallis flips out a bit, in the last thread at the bottom of the Review: in this thread http://trio.rpg.net/rf08/read.php?f...ww.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_6449.html
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_6455.html
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_6989.html

IMS, he "lashed out" at one person inappropriately. He never truly apologized in public, to his discredit, but he did later admit he flipped out a bit.

Given the circumstances and a few malicious posters on RPG.net, I can understand him getting upset. I mean, Jesus, one guy posted over 600 posts flaming a game he had never even read. If you follow the threads, you'll see that there was no anti-d20 bashing going on. Wallis plays D&D... or at least he used to, from what I've heard. The basic idea he was trying to get across was that Hogshead wanted to make a game that was the 'finely crafted German watch' of RPGs - Nobilis. If you just want to tell the time, there are cheaper watches out there. If you appreciate all those cogs, the brass, the little watchchain, the 'fine German craftsmanship' then take a look at Nobilis. It's a big game, not really given to immediate out of the box play; there's lots of info to absorb.

However, if you'd still like to serve on the Baseless And Petty d20 Revenge Squad, by all means look for those Jolly Ranchers. I'm sure the world will be improved by your efforts.

Vrylakos
PS: For those interested, here's the bit that James Wallis caught flack for:

Thorin Stoutfoot says:

Originally posted by Thorin Stoutfoot on RPG.net
How can you *need* this game if you're not going to play it and all you're going to do is to spend 2.5 hours skimming through it?! Sounds like a waste of $43 to me!

Grrr.... sometimes I think people on RPG.net seem to be more fond of talking about games and theorizing the nicieties of gaming than actually playing.

Say what you like about Munchkin D&D players, at least they PLAY the game.

Later Thorin adds:

Originally posted by Thorin Stoutfoot on RPG.net
A $40 book for recreational reading is not my idea of good value. For $40, there are any number of novels (for instance, "A Doll's House"), which would be good reading.

I'm not saying you shouldn't spend the money, but I think that one needs to provide qualifications when one uses words like "You need this book."

"This book is worth reading", for instance, is something that I wouldn't quibble with. It obviously would be. If someone gave me a free copy, I'd probably read it.

James Wallis replies:

Originally posted by James Wallis
We've ("we" being Hogshead) have said several times that although we believe Nobilis is the best RPG ever published, that doesn't mean every gamer will enjoy it, just as some people prefer Dragonlance novels to the books of Borges or Calvino. The majority of gamers will find Nobilis simply *too much* for them -- too much information, too much imagination, too much to understand. Someone who posts to message-boards as "Thorin Stoutfoot" is almost certainly one of those people.

Inappropriate? Perhaps.

Thorin makes his judgments on what's good, James makes a counterstatement but -GASP- ventures to stereotype Thorin based on his prior posts. Worth crucifying with the Jolly Rancher d20? No, in my opinion. Wick was far far worse in his thinly veiled contempt for d20. James shows no contempt, though perhaps gets caught up in his hyperbole and pride over the game...

Jeez, I've probably opened up a can of worms here.