[WFRP] Hogshead Closes Doors

[WombleHunter]

That makes me a saaaad panda.

 

[Aaron2]

That makes me a saaaad panda.

I guess Hogshead just released so few products that I'm having a hard time getting worked up about it. I'll miss the occasional WFRP release though.

I guess Mongoose is IT for the british gaming scene.


Aaron

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

Were you questioning the worth of their products right after the release of a new game they had high hopes for?

Was I questioning the worth of Nobilis in that thread? Go back and read it. I wasn't. I wasn't questioning the worth of a mindlessly fanboy review that was the result of a 2 hour reading of a book and no testing. The fact was, James Wallis could not distinguish between someone bashing a lousy review (and yes, you can rave about a product and end up writing a lousy review) with no credibility, and someone bashing his product. Does that make him a bad person? No, but it casts his judgement in a less than ideal light.

And indeed, after posting here on ENWorld about the lack of d20 supplements for Call of Cthulhu d20, I wrote to Lynn Willis about it and he pitched the idea of me writing the Masks d20 conversion for him. How's that for a class act?

Like I said, if James Wallis is representative of the non-d20 crowd of publishers/designers, then I think I know why the d20 side of the fence is winning the battle for market share and mind share.

 

[Sammael99]

You know what, guys ?

I for one didn't believe in the d20 hegemony theory until I read this thread. I'm amazed at the responses here. I'm amazed that people say "good riddance" about a company whose games they have never read, I'm amazed that because said company says they are frustrated with the RPG environment they immediately assume these guys are pretentious snobs. I'm amazed, in other words, at the intolerance that that kind of attitude entails.

I think it's sad that a company that was on the creative side of RPGs and willing to take risks is stopping business. I like it when some companies decide to cater for the non hack n' slash crowd and use that as a creative baseline. I'm not saying hack n' slash is bad, if that's you bag that's fine by me. But if someone is dubbed pretentious because they try to do more with roleplaying, well that's just sad.

Is there some kind of social class role playing divide between the base hack n' slash labourers and the snobbish intellectual role-players that I'm not aware of ???

Besides this however, I'm just sad that FRUP will never see the light of day. Not that I was having much hopes, but still... I, if I was a billionaire, I'd dig up those 5 figures in sterling...

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

I for one didn't believe in the d20 hegemony theory until I read this thread. I'm amazed at the responses here. I'm amazed that people say "good riddance" about a company whose games they have never read, I'm amazed that because said company says they are frustrated with the RPG environment they immediately assume these guys are pretentious snobs. I'm amazed, in other words, at the intolerance that that kind of attitude entails.

I think it's sad that a company that was on the creative side of RPGs and willing to take risks is stopping business. I like it when some companies decide to cater for the non hack n' slash crowd and use that as a creative baseline. I'm not saying hack n' slash is bad, if that's you bag that's fine by me. But if someone is dubbed pretentious because they try to do more with roleplaying, well that's just sad.

Are you reading the same thread I am? Nobody's saying "good riddance" about the company. There are comments here and there about James Wallis, his attitude towards potential customers, and so on. But nobody's said "good riddance" to Hogshead leaving the business. I'm afraid any intolerance you're reading here on this thread is a result of your bitterness.

Finally, I have to say that the ones who are taking risks and coming up with new concepts in this industry have been the ones the non-d20 folks like to villify. For instance, when Ryan Dancey first put forth the idea of the OGL, there were flamewars all over RPG.net. (There still are now about the very idea of d20 taking over) Giving away all of your intellectual property for everyone else to reuse was a major risk. And if you don't believe that, go back a couple of years at RPG.net, and see. There were folks who believed that 3E and D&D would fail there and then.

Today, WoTC isn't on the cutting edge. But they don't have to be. It's the d20 designers like Monte Cook (who just this year introduced 2 innovations: the event book and the Arcana Unearthed PHB replacement/supplement) that are pushing the envelope. To believe that the non-d20 publishers/designers are the only ones doing the innovative stuff is sheer propaganda.

 

[Aaron2]

I think it's sad that a company that was on the creative side of RPGs and willing to take risks is stopping business. I like it when some companies decide to cater for the non hack n' slash crowd and use that as a creative baseline. I'm not saying hack n' slash is bad, if that's you bag that's fine by me.

Dude, read what you just said. Hogshead was "creative" and, therefore, companies that cater to "hack n' slash" gamers are not creative.

How can you then claim ignorance of the "social class role playing divide"? Its one thing to say a company is creative, its quite another to say its on the "creative side".

I don't think I could name a company that didn't at least -try- to be creative. Where is this non-creative side?


Aaron

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Hogshead's business motto is...bah, was, "Life is too short to do business with idiots". James can be a bit snappy and abrasive online, and he rarely pulls his punches.

Nothing wrong with that, I feel and act the same way. I speak my mind when I know I shouldn't. I'm not taking issue with that, I'm taking issue with WHAT he said, the implication that d20 players are low-brow twits, that his products are an art form that we're unable to understand and unworthy to play.

I for one didn't believe in the d20 hegemony theory until I read this thread. I'm amazed at the responses here. I'm amazed that people say "good riddance" about a company whose games they have never read, I'm amazed that because said company says they are frustrated with the RPG environment they immediately assume these guys are pretentious snobs. I'm amazed, in other words, at the intolerance that that kind of attitude entails.

I have read and appreciated Hogshead stuff. Nobody is saying good riddance, and nobody is saying that simply because they expressed frustration with the RPG environment that they are pretentious snobs. You can be "amazed" at my phenomenal powers of observation if you like, but there's nothing amazing at work here. The implication in his farewell post was so clear that I picked up on it without even having read any of the threads from RPG.net.

And what he actually said goes far beyond mere frustration with the market in general.


Wulf

 

[Sammael99]

Are you reading the same thread I am? Nobody's saying "good riddance" about the company. There are comments here and there about James Wallis, his attitude towards potential customers, and so on. But nobody's said "good riddance" to Hogshead leaving the business. I'm afraid any intolerance you're reading here on this thread is a result of your bitterness.

I don't want this to be controversial, but this

Good riddance, say I. The RPG community with be all the better off without Wallis' snotty attitude and lame, mediocre products.

Says exactly what I'm saying above.

I'm not bitter. I'm just amazed at the comments I'm reading here.

Finally, I have to say that the ones who are taking risks and coming up with new concepts in this industry have been the ones the non-d20 folks like to villify. For instance, when Ryan Dancey first put forth the idea of the OGL, there were flamewars all over RPG.net. (There still are now about the very idea of d20 taking over) Giving away all of your intellectual property for everyone else to reuse was a major risk. And if you don't believe that, go back a couple of years at RPG.net, and see. There were folks who believed that 3E and D&D would fail there and then.

I agree that that was new and it was taking a risk, business wise. There are other kinds of risks, and I believe that WW when they launched Vampire took a risk (admittedly, risks are very relative for comanies like what WW was back then ) and I think for Hogshead to publish Nobilis was also a risk...

Today, WoTC isn't on the cutting edge. But they don't have to be. It's the d20 designers like Monte Cook (who just this year introduced 2 innovations: the event book and the Arcana Unearthed PHB replacement/supplement) that are pushing the envelope. To believe that the non-d20 publishers/designers are the only ones doing the innovative stuff is sheer propaganda.

I didn't say that. I also don't think of Monte Cook as cutting edge (although I like his products, or most of them anyway, a lot) There are people who puch the envelope significantly in d20. I'm thinking of The End, for example. And that's great.

I guess in the end, it all depends on your point of view.

 

[Sammael99]

Dude, read what you just said. Hogshead was "creative" and, therefore, companies that cater to "hack n' slash" gamers are not creative.

I don't think that they are. And I don't think that's in any way a criticism or a judgement, either. Heck, some comanies are even advertising that, so how could it be a judgement ?

A part of the market today is saying black and white on their product covers : "buy this to enjoy the good old stuff you used to enjoy 15 years ago". I'm not saying they aren't being creative, they are !

And again, I'm not saying a product is better because it's creative. They are making a marketing decision to cater for a certain public, the same way that others are making a marketing decision to cater for people looking to be surprised.

How can you then claim ignorance of the "social class role playing divide"? Its one thing to say a company is creative, its quite another to say its on the "creative side".

OK, so maybe our misunderstanding is purely semantic. I don't see the nuance. Being creative, or "on the creative side" to me, is trying to do something essentially different from what has been done before. And again, that's not a judgement I'm making.

I don't think I could name a company that didn't at least -try- to be creative. Where is this non-creative side?

Again, it's a question of vocabulary. I can think of quite a few companies, or at least quite a few products from some companies that are not significantly different from stuff that has been published in the past, whether for d20 or before that. If these guys are selling their products it means that they have got it right. It's all that matters : they are making some customers happy. What I fail to understand is that being on the other end, trying to do stuff that is different from what has been done seems to be considered pretentious. I find that amazing...

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

What I fail to understand is that being on the other end, trying to do stuff that is different from what has been done seems to be considered pretentious. I find that amazing...

And you're misunderstanding. Nobody claims that doing stuff that's different is pretentious. People are claiming that James Wallis's attitude that "Nobilis" isn't for the likes of d20 players is pretentious. (And quite possibly obnoxious and offensive to potential customers, which might not be good for business, but given that Nobilis has sold out, that's probably not true at all)