D&D 5E Whack-a-mole gaming or being healed from 0 hp

[Celtavian]

These two things are mutually exclusive for me (as player and DM)

Finding a different way to achieve victory is always fun for me. Most people build these incredible damage dealers. I built an incredible damage healer and preventer. It turned out to be quite powerful. Just not something I would do all the time given it turned out to be too powerful.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Seen that in 3e/PF, not really in 4e, 5e, or pre-3e after the first couple levels. 5e PCs
seem pretty durable relative to monster damage.

It is far less common in 5e than 3e, but I've seen it happen. Typically it involves either a lot of weaker creatures with a lucky round on the DM's part, or an exceptionally hard hitting attack plus bad luck (failed save against an above average roll of a dragon's breath attack).

 

[Tony Vargas]

That said, without ranged healing if someone goes down your better move is probably to draw away their opponent somehow, finish the fight, and worry about healing afterward.

Lan-"not everyone needs to be doing something all the time"-efan

The system doesn't support that vision, though, because characters are instantly as capable as at full health the moment they regain 1 hp. Same reason focus fire is such a rapacious basic tactic in D&D. Institute a wound-penalty death spiral or something like the 1e AD&D week-of-bed-rest to recover when dropped to negatives, and you change that. Don't, and failing to stand up fallen allies ASAP remains a sub-optimal tactic.

 

[Kalshane]

That seems a bit extreme, relative to the magnitude of the problem. In general, it's not much fun for a character to go from up-and-ambulatory to dead without any chance to save, and that would happen automatically on the third instance of hitting 0 in a given day. It's only generous relative to AD&D, but even then, not by a significant margin.

Well, that's why I said you might want to increase the Death Save threshold. Also, I did suggest they would reset on a short rest. So it's not for the day, just until the party can find a safe place to bunker down for a little while and let their friend that got clobbered get his bearings back. (I'd also allow any return from the dead magic to reset them as well. Having to resurrect someone over and over because they maxed out their death saves would be pretty aggravating.)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I disagree. At least in my campaign worlds, classed characters are rare, and classed adventurers even moreso. Classed adventurers with healing capabilities then, are a subset of a very exclusive group. As such, "halfway smart" foes are unlikely to expect to face such characters. Even smart foes won't necessarily expect it, unless they've taken the time to research the party's abilities.

Only if you change death checks so that natural 20 doesn't restore HP. Otherwise downed enemies pop back up within five rounds around 18% of the time, which is frequently enough that you might learn to double-tap downed foes even in the absence of healing magic.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Only if you change death checks so that natural 20 doesn't restore HP. Otherwise downed enemies pop back up within five rounds around 18% of the time, which is frequently enough that you might learn to double-tap downed foes even in the absence of healing magic.

That's a good reason to finish someone off if you don't have anything more pressing to do.

However, if the rogue is bleeding out but the fighter is still beating on the monster, I'd say that a smart monster should probably deal with the immediate threat rather than worry about a low risk possibility in the relatively far future. Heck, even a dumb monster should do so. If some guy is swinging a giant axe at my head, what I'm not going to do is ignore him so I can double-tap his unconscious buddy. Because that would be suicidal.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

That's a good reason to finish someone off if you don't have anything more pressing to do.

However, if the rogue is bleeding out but the fighter is still beating on the monster, I'd say that a smart monster should probably deal with the immediate threat rather than worry about a low risk possibility in the relatively far future. Heck, even a dumb monster should do so. If some guy is swinging a giant axe at my head, what I'm not going to do is ignore him so I can double-tap his unconscious buddy. Because that would be suicidal.

Agreed. The kind of behavior I'm envisioning is that if I'm e.g. a young adult red dragon who just killed a human knight with a claw/claw routine, I might as well bite him in addition, instead of flying 30' to the next knight and trying to bite him. If the second knight is actively attacking me, that obviously changes my priorities.

Similar logic applies if I'm fighting disparate threats. If I just took down a guy who was swinging a giant axe at my head (GWM), I might double tap him even if there's a guy plinking at me with little arrows, because I want the axe guy to stay down. Basically anyone who proves to be a disproportionate threat should deserve a double-tap, IMO, regardless of healing, under PHB RAW for death saves. Personally I find the auto-revive on 20 annoying to me as a DM[1] so I only allow popups to 1 HP on natural 20s on Medicine checks, not death checks.

[1] It's annoying because it means I can't wait until after combat to roll death checks for all the unconscious monsters--I have to roll them during combat just in case someone revived enough to resume the fight. Too much hassle.

 

[Tony Vargas]

If some guy is swinging a giant axe at my head, what I'm not going to do is ignore him so I can double-tap his unconscious buddy. Because that would be suicidal.

If finishing the downed enemy left you 'open' to being attacked more effectively by the guy with the axe, sure. Your AC is the same regardless of your choice of targets on your turn, though, so it's just the usual race to 0 hps - if the downed guy might get up on his turn and do a lot of damage to you (a lot more than you might take even from that giant axe, in subsequent rounds), it might well make sense to finish him while you can.

Now, you could add mechanics to make the specific scenario you put forth work more like you envision it - like marking, actually, for one instance, or an AoO for CdG.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Agreed. The kind of behavior I'm envisioning is that if I'm e.g. a young adult red dragon who just killed a human knight with a claw/claw routine, I might as well bite him in addition, instead of flying 30' to the next knight and trying to bite him. If the second knight is actively attacking me, that obviously changes my priorities.

Similar logic applies if I'm fighting disparate threats. If I just took down a guy who was swinging a giant axe at my head (GWM), I might double tap him even if there's a guy plinking at me with little arrows, because I want the axe guy to stay down. Basically anyone who proves to be a disproportionate threat should deserve a double-tap, IMO, regardless of healing, under PHB RAW for death saves. Personally I find the auto-revive on 20 annoying to me as a DM[1] so I only allow popups to 1 HP on natural 20s on Medicine checks, not death checks.

[1] It's annoying because it means I can't wait until after combat to roll death checks for all the unconscious monsters--I have to roll them during combat just in case someone revived enough to resume the fight. Too much hassle.

Fair enough. If another opponent isn't an immediate threat, a double-tap might be reasonable.

It might be reasonable under some circumstances to double-tap an unconscious GWF rather than attack the archer, but generally not IMO. It's like double-tapping the unconscious guy with the bazooka while someone with a 9mm is shooting at you. Sure the rocket is more dangerous, but it's not currently a threat, and the bullet can kill you just as dead.

It's your call if you want to roll death saves for monsters, but per RAW you don't have to (PHB 198 Monsters and Death). I don't generally bother with death saves for monsters myself.

If finishing the downed enemy left you 'open' to being attacked more effectively by the guy with the axe, sure. Your AC is the same regardless of your choice of targets on your turn, though, so it's just the usual race to 0 hps - if the downed guy might get up on his turn and do a lot of damage to you (a lot more than you might take even from that giant axe, in subsequent rounds), it might well make sense to finish him while you can.

Now, you could add mechanics to make the specific scenario you put forth work more like you envision it - like marking, actually, for one instance, or an AoO for CdG.

It does leave you open though. It's not much different from losing initiative; effectively you're giving your opponent more attacks. If you're relatively certain that the downed guy will get back up and attack again, then it may be a worthwhile trade off. IMO, that's not usually a reasonable assumption though.

I think double tapping PCs often stems from a DM's metagame idea of winning (killing PCs) rather than winning from the monsters' perspective (survival). Killing an enemy who isn't a threat (whether that's temporary or permanent) is pretty pointless if his allies kill you.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It does leave you open though. It's not much different from losing initiative; effectively you're giving your opponent more attacks.

No more or less than attacking anyone else, it's just a matter of who you decide to race to 0 hps (or death, in that case).

If you're relatively certain that the downed guy will get back up and attack again, then it may be a worthwhile trade off. IMO, that's not usually a reasonable assumption though.

I think double tapping PCs often stems from a DM's metagame idea of winning (killing PCs) rather than winning from the monsters' perspective (survival).

That could be part of it. (Conversely, DMs who care about their players' fun may avoid finishing them when down or keeping them down, on the theory that RPing lying on the ground bleeding is un-fun.) OTOH, if the approach to the game world is that the PCs are not that unique, then enemies could be familiar with the idea of healer-aided adventuring parties, and realize that ganking the healer in the surprise round and/or finishing off cracked glass cannons is a good idea.

If PCs are virtually unique in the world, OTOH, their enemies would frequently be taken aback when they rally. At least, the first time.