D&D 5E Whack-a-mole gaming or being healed from 0 hp

[CapnZapp]

One thing you might want to try first is having creatures go out of their way to actualy kill players.

This thread is here because I emphatically do not want creatures to go out of their way to actually kill players. I want to discuss changing the rules in such ways that this behavior isn't a go-to solution for anyone but a small minority of "extra-evil" foes.

The only reason creatures would ever go out of their way to kill player characters is because of the "don't count negative hit points" and the availability of Healing Word.

By keeping a count of hit points all the way down to -10 characters will stay down when put down and thus the monsters won't have to "double tap" the fallen.

The party can still combat-heal a fallen comrade back up on his feet. They just need to spend slightly more effort than "very little" (=a bonus action and a first level slot).

 

[Rhenny]

This thread is here because I emphatically do not want creatures to go out of their way to actually kill players. I want to discuss changing the rules in such ways that this behavior isn't a go-to solution for anyone but a small minority of "extra-evil" foes.

The only reason creatures would ever go out of their way to kill player characters is because of the "don't count negative hit points" and the availability of Healing Word.

By keeping a count of hit points all the way down to -10 characters will stay down when put down and thus the monsters won't have to "double tap" the fallen.

The party can still combat-heal a fallen comrade back up on his feet. They just need to spend slightly more effort than "very little" (=a bonus action and a first level slot).

I think what Edwin is implying is that if the players know that monsters, especially animalistic and/or intelligent foes, will attack unconscious foes, those players will alter their play style so that they don't allow PCs to go unconscious. Therefore, healing will take place prior to unconsciousness, not after. And, if a player goes unconscious and suffers 2 death saves, more power to the healer who can get him up from there.

Interestingly, if you play with players who are used to 1e/2e, they instinctively fear 0 hp. Some of my players still play as if 0 = death.

I guess using lingering injuries chart in the DMG might also be a way to discourage people from going to 0 hp. If it is too punitive, you can always give the player a saving throw to avoid the injury (in fact, I'd probably just make it like a death saving throw so that no particular PC gets an undue bonus, but they can spend inspiration or other save powers to augment the roll if they really fear getting an injury).

 

[CapnZapp]

I think what Edwin is implying is that if the players know that monsters, especially animalistic and/or intelligent foes, will attack unconscious foes, those players will alter their play style so that they don't allow PCs to go unconscious. Therefore, healing will take place prior to unconsciousness, not after.

Yes, I understand that, but...

I don't want my foes to keep hacking away at fallen characters!

(More specifically, I resent being funneled into having my monsters act in a certain way just to counter the power of Healing Word; I want my monsters to act the way they have always acted without that making the game play on easy mode!)

I still want the end result, mind you. I still want players to stop saving most of their healing for when their allies are at 0 hp.

I just don't want to actively have to defeat that strategy by making monsters routinely try to kill off fallen foes!

 

[Edwin Suijkerbuijk]

(More specifically, I resent being funneled into having my monsters act in a certain way just to counter the power of Healing Word; I want my monsters to act the way they have always acted without that making the game play on easy mode!)

I guess that is a difrence in play style I started playing during the ADnD 2nd day ad we used the optional -10 rule.
In our games it has always been comon for creatures to kill their enemies as in a world where there is magical halong just knocking somebody out doesen't mean that person is defeated.

So for us nothing changed in the way monsters act.

 

[discosoc]

I've not found this to be an issue, but I use the optional cleave rule in the DMG -- with a slight twist. Basically, if you drop someone to 0 health, you can carry over additional damage to anyone near them, or within movement range if no other targets are closer (assuming the hit roll was high enough to actually hit the new target(s)). The players like this because they can blow things like smites without worrying about wasting them, and I like it because it makes healing an important part of combat if even one player drops too low.

Suddenly, being able to pop up to 1 hp isn't that impressive when the monster will drop you and likely carry over his damage to your friends. That kind of healing still gets used, but only in situations where it's needed, like someone is not stabilizing properly in combat, or trying to help heal dying soldiers after a battle, etc.. It also speeds combat up a bit.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

You know, while we're on the subject of hacking away at an unconscious dude... does it disturb anyone besides me that an unconscious, unarmored Dex 20 guy is much harder to kill than an unconscious, unarmored Dex 3 guy?

 

[Aangus]

After having a fighter get knocked way down and get back up and fighting the next round we instituted a -10 cutoff, where if damage takes you past -10 but not to actual dead you can get healed up to positive numbers but you are not doing anything but moving at half movement till a long rest.

 

[Rhenny]

Yes, I understand that, but...

I don't want my foes to keep hacking away at fallen characters!

(More specifically, I resent being funneled into having my monsters act in a certain way just to counter the power of Healing Word; I want my monsters to act the way they have always acted without that making the game play on easy mode!)

I still want the end result, mind you. I still want players to stop saving most of their healing for when their allies are at 0 hp.

I just don't want to actively have to defeat that strategy by making monsters routinely try to kill off fallen foes!

I get it. There's no problem with what you want, and I think your solution using negative hit points should work fine.

I'd also love to see someone try a mechanic that made an unconscious PC need to roll some kind of will or con save to become conscious again. Maybe the healer could raise a fallen PC from 0 to 5 hp, but if the PC doesn't make the save, it is a slow heal that is still working. He may be stabilized and at 5 hp, but still not conscious. (I know this messes with the idea of unconscious at 0 hp, but it may be interesting to try - maybe the condition "incapacitated" still applies until a save is made, even after raised to positive hit points.)

 

[CapnZapp]

The thing about that solution is that it puts a downer on the PC that has fallen.

I know that is realistic, but gamewise it plays much better if being defeated and falling to zero hp isn't overly penalized - since you want your heroes to act heroically and take those risks! After all, this is fantasy

The neat thing with negative hit points is that it's mostly the group's resources that are taxed (potions, cleric heals etc), not that individual player character!

Falling to zero is a fact of life in D&D. Penalizing this in the name of "realism" just penalizes you from taking risks, acting the hero, and getting down and dirty. And D&D isn't that kind of gritty sniping and skulking game ... at least it isn't for me.

So while I wanted to remove (or at least lessen) the multi-step impact* of the generous zero hp rules have (can have), I don't want the hero wading into melee to take the fall for that impact! So no exhaustion levels or conditions or anything else once you get back up on your feet, not for me at least!



*) Said impact being, of course:
1) Rules on zero hp means a lot of enemy damage is absorbed
2) Even the cheapest heal is guaranteed to enable your ally's combat actions
3) hovering just above zero hp becomes the optimal choice for combat healing to such a degree perhaps the best party all have Healing Word
4) turning heroes into the deeply unsatisfying yet strangely minmaxing Whack and Mole Team
5) Monsters have one readily available counter: to get mean and nasty to defeat the "Whack and Mole Team" strategy
6) If Monsters routinely kill off those they down, the benefits of 1 & 2 are lost anyway, with the only end result being
7) the enjoyable fun atmosphere of D&D is lost when everybody starts killing everybody else, leading only to resentment among players and players who start revenge-torturing monsters and finally
8) game falls apart since the fun factor is lost amid all the bitter murdering...

 

[werecorpse]

Increase the negative effect of going unconscious.
Thereby meaning
- the fact that a lot of enemy damage is absorbed is ok because the enemy has made you go unconscious
- if the cheapest heal doesn't guarantee return to full options
- hovering above zero isn't optimal because it has a greater chance of being unconscious
- when you "mole" up you have some left over deleterious effect from going unconscious.
- monsters don't need to coup de grace because unconscious matters

My suggestion is that after being unconscious all rolls are at disadvantage until the end of your next turn ( f you want to be harsher maybe no action until end of next turn) & if you want to go further each time you go unconscious you have an increased chance of a lingering injury.

I don't like the idea of negative hit points because I don't want to have one character staying unconscious for a long time and another character use their action to cure them in combat only to have them stay unconscious. That's double unfun IMO.