D&D 5E Whack-a-mole gaming or being healed from 0 hp

[Leatherhead]

Many of you have observed that a simple Healing Word is all that is needed to "save" a downed ally's set of actions - even at 1 hp, that ally performs at full capacity.

How big of an issue has the fact that being downed in combat mostly means going prone (perhaps the lightest penalty in the entire game) been for you in practical play?

If a problem, what did you do about it?

I have such a huge problem with combat healing bending combat pacing around it's little finger that I am trying to figure out how to remove combat healing almost entirely. I understand the need for some kind of stabilization to mitigate death, and the need for some kind of "second wind" (not the mechanic, the thematic element of people going back into the fight after getting trounced) but I hope to keep them palatably rare.

On the one hand, you have people pushing to punish players for getting to 0 hp, in order to mitigate or prevent the most egregious example of messing up pacing (this whack-a-mole problem). On the other hand, such punishments only raise the demand for combat healing to their most extreme level possible.

As a result, I have been working over the idea of adding an exhaustion level every time someone is healed outside of a rest, and adding an injury every time someone is knocked to 0. But there is a lot of work that needs to be done in order to fit such a thing into 5e. Most noticeably some kind of non-magical way to cure injuries (like surgery), and a way to better speed up exhaustion recovery.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

This is a cool variant but doesn't pop up healing still work? Say a fighter got knocked down to -5 hp, then he gets healed for 10. Is he still down but stable or back in the fight with 5 hp in your system?

IMO, the thing that makes pop-up healing egregious is that zero HP is "sticky": as long as you didn't hit instant death, 1 HP of healing negates any amount of damage. Take 100 HP of damage, heal 1 HP via Regeneration and you're back up. Next turn, take another 100 HP of damage, and again you heal 1 HP via Regeneration and are back up. Rope-a-dope: the enemy blows his biggest attacks for nothing. Under S'mon's rules, 0 HP is no more special than any other number, so popup healing is no better than any other kind of healing.

 

[hejtmane]

Why not just apply a disadvantage on attacks for x number of rounds/attacks yes you could use exhaustion as well but the disadvantage on attacks is not hard to apply the logic you are recovered but not fully because a you are pick a mired of reasons.

If they go to o HP again add x number around (if in the same fight). You could also add disadvantage on saving throws after going from 0 to 1 hp.

Why over complicated things; there is consequences now but not overly complex for you or the player

 

[fuindordm]

I've been trying to play for a while BtB, and while it bothers me a little bit, whack-a-mole works OK in play.
None of my PCs have died yet, but several times people have reached strike two before anyone could get to them, and a couple of times the person helping them had to do something crazy like run all the way across a battlefield taking opportunity attacks.

The thing is, damage from monsters is so high, and ACs tend to be so low, that once you find yourself in melee it's very hard to find tactics that can protect you from getting knocked out. In AD&D, damage was lower relative to HP so the players could feel the slow attrition and more easily make choices like breaking off combat or hiding behind their tank for a couple of rounds. In 5E, it's all too easy to run into an ogre and get slammed down in the 2nd round.

So I'm hesitant to impose a further penalty for getting knocked out.

I would consider things like keeping the death save secret, or adding a condition when the player gets up again.

Here's another idea: apply overflow damage to the player's max HP, removable by HD spent during a long rest only.

For example, Fighter has 5 HP, 40 max HP, and takes 15 damage. They are now at 0 current HP, and 30 max HP. They can be healed and get back in the fight, but have less potential stamina. After the next long rest they spend 1 HD and roll 8. Their max HP increases to 38, but they don't have that HD to spend the next day.

 

[Celtavian]

I've been trying to play for a while BtB, and while it bothers me a little bit, whack-a-mole works OK in play.
None of my PCs have died yet, but several times people have reached strike two before anyone could get to them, and a couple of times the person helping them had to do something crazy like run all the way across a battlefield taking opportunity attacks.

The thing is, damage from monsters is so high, and ACs tend to be so low, that once you find yourself in melee it's very hard to find tactics that can protect you from getting knocked out. In AD&D, damage was lower relative to HP so the players could feel the slow attrition and more easily make choices like breaking off combat or hiding behind their tank for a couple of rounds. In 5E, it's all too easy to run into an ogre and get slammed down in the 2nd round.

So I'm hesitant to impose a further penalty for getting knocked out.

I would consider things like keeping the death save secret, or adding a condition when the player gets up again.

Here's another idea: apply overflow damage to the player's max HP, removable by HD spent during a long rest only.

For example, Fighter has 5 HP, 40 max HP, and takes 15 damage. They are now at 0 current HP, and 30 max HP. They can be healed and get back in the fight, but have less potential stamina. After the next long rest they spend 1 HD and roll 8. Their max HP increases to 38, but they don't have that HD to spend the next day.

This is my experience as well. Game seems built with whack-a-mole in mind. No use making it harder for PCs to survive and get back in action. I look at it like those moments you see in movies when a hero falls unconscious except in the D&D world a cleric calls them back to consciousness with healing magic.

 

[MG.0]

This supports the narrative trope of e.g. finding a wounded warrior who gives you information before he dies, unless you heal him.

This is a trope I've noticed is sorely missing from D&D. Where are the warriors who know they are dying but use a last heroic action to save the day / take the enemy with them / give inspiring or cryptic last words? The universality of always being unconcious before dying irritates me.

I've been meaning to find a solution for this.


For the whack-a-mole thing, why not have a character healed spend a round or two prone + stunned and then upgrade to prone + incapacitated before returning to normal. Incapacitated characters can stand up and move to get out of harms way, but cannot take actions or reactions.

Don't forget that unconscious characters would also drop everything they are holding, meaning they are going to likely need an action to stop and pick up their weapon / shield. They don't just magically pop-up with their weapons in hand.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

In my 4E Far Realm incursion Firestorm Peak campaign I ran, I did both that death saves did not reset until you took a long rest, and that Max HP went down to 3/4ths, 1/2, and 1/4th based upon dropping to 0 HP and then each failed death save (so dropping to 0 HP the first time reduced your Max HP to 3/4th, first failed Death save dropped Max HP to 1/2, 2nd failed to 1/4th. 3rd failed you died, obviously.)

I've not yet instituted any adjustments to the 0HP / death save rules from the norm in my current 5E campaign... but definitely think I will do so in my next one. Probably adding the "levels of Exhaustion" mechanic to PCs who drop to 0 or fail death saves.

WOW! Just...WOW. This...sounds incredibly punitive compared to the default game. Perhaps I've just had some particularly dangerous DMs, but I'm pretty sure I would have had at least two dead PCs by now, and no 4e campaign I've played has managed to make it past the first few levels! I'm genuinely curious--how did this tend to shake out in play? I'd expect a pretty long list of dead PCs, but...well, different rules can foster different behavior.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Don't forget that unconscious characters would also drop everything they are holding, meaning they are going to likely need an action to stop and pick up their weapon / shield. They don't just magically pop-up with their weapons in hand.

It takes a full action to doff a shield. No way is it coming off just because you're incapacitated--although it would be cool if Shield Master let you don/doff with a bonus action.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Why not just apply a disadvantage on attacks for x number of rounds/attacks yes you could use exhaustion as well but the disadvantage on attacks is not hard to apply the logic you are recovered but not fully because a you are pick a mired of reasons.

If they go to o HP again add x number around (if in the same fight). You could also add disadvantage on saving throws after going from 0 to 1 hp.

Why over complicated things; there is consequences now but not overly complex for you or the player

Hmmm imposing disad on PC attacks (or giving targets of spells Adv on saves) because they are weak after dropping to zero hp, even if whack a moled back up, is a pretty interesting - and simple - solution. I might have to trial this. I find injuries work well enough to dissuade whack a mole but your idea is simpler.

On the other hand, disad is very potent, it might lead to a TPK if too many PCs dropped in close combats.

 

[Rhenny]

It happens often in the games I DM and play in, but we don't mind it at all. It is exciting and we don't really care if our games play like simulations. Like others have said, the real fear of death comes from attacks that do massive damage or from attacks against already unconscious PCs, which I don't rule out if the creature attacking has a good reason to attack the unconscious PC.

Many of the work arounds will make the game much more lethal (death spiral), which is ok if that's what you are going for, but to me, D&D just isn't that kind of game.