D&D General What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?

[Minigiant]

Right. And given than they don't think this is problem (and you seem to firmly believe this is their essential trait that cannot be changed) why would they then design a parallel magic system that prevents such sharing? Your whole argument is completely incoherent.

They won't.

What part you don't get.

They won't.

The 5e design philosophy and the designers favoritism to wizard mean a 5e Psion will be spell based. And it will break part of the game.

My point is a nonspell Psion actually has a lower chance of breakage of the game and could end up pleasing more as people will be turned of by the game breaking Spell Psion.

But without fan support to raise awareness to the problem, it won't happen. Because they likely are afraid of another UA on psionics.

 

[Yaarel]

Mind Link is a kalashtar ability IIRC - I don't know why Tasha's decided to make the Telepathic Feat anything other than Mind Link.

Mind Link would be reasonable for a level 1 Psion, especially a Telepath.

I would argue that this is Concentration in 5e. A mechanic that allows a psionic character to maintain multiple Concentration spells as they level up would be an interesting take.

Concentration is for mechanical balance, by preventing the layering of many powerful spells simultaneously.

The "always on" mechanic is something different.

For example, the Mage Armor spell can be written with the "Always on" technical term appearing in the spell description where the "At higher levels" technical term might be. Instead of spending the spell slot to cast Mage Armor, one instead makes the Mage Armor occupy the spell slot, so that the spell duration lasts as long as the spell remains in that slot - whether awake or sleeping. Of course, the slot cant be used for any other spells while occupied. Perhaps "at higher levels" the Mage Armor can occupy a higher slot for a better ongoing effect.

The proposal for an always on mechanic, allows D&D to model various superhero concepts, like the body armor of Superman and She-Hulk.

The Tasha's Sorc already has this one for their psionic spells, it would just need to be expanded to all spells on their list.

All spells must be psionic innate.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

They won't.

What part you don't get.

They won't.

No, I fully get that. What I don't get why people keep wasting time for clamouring some perfect pipe-dream vision of a Psion with completely new bespoke mechanics that WotC is never going to print. If you have such a clear vision, write it an use it in your own games. Problem solved.

The 5e design philosophy and the designers favoritism to wizard mean a 5e Psion will be spell based. And it will break part of the game.

No it won't. At least not more than the current multiclassing. (Which is a problem and should be addressed, but also optional.)

My point is a nonspell Psion actually has a lower chance of breakage of the game and could end up pleasing more as people will be turned of by the game breaking Spell Psion.

No. A completely new untested system has a high chance of being broken. Furthermore, your whole notion of the spell psion being broken rests on the idea of WotC would allow broken combos, not realising that they would be broken. And if they don't realise that, then they are not gonna realise the potential balance issues in a brand new system either.

But without fan support to raise awareness to the problem, it won't happen. Because they likely are afraid of another UA on psionics.

Raise awareness of the multiclassing and spell sharing being broken, as that's the root of your actual (or at least stated) issue.

 

[Yaarel]

The 3e Psion has nothing to do with spell slots. I am literally sitting here with both the Psionics Handbook (3.0) and the Expanded Psionics Handbook (3.5), and I can assure you that they are purely points based. Your assertions to the contrary do not get any more accurate just because you keep repeating them.

_
glass.

In 3e:

Spell slots = Spell points


Slot 1 = 1 point
Slot 2 = 3 points
Slot 3 = 5 points
...
Slot 9 = 17 points


The 3e Psion is a full caster who casts the appropriate spell slots at the appropriate caster levels, from spell slot level 1 spells to spell slot level 9 spells.

 

[James Gasik]

The 3e Psion is a little more complex than that, however. Those are the base point costs; you also have augment costs if you want their powers to function at higher level. For example, Energy Ball (the Psion equivalent to Fireball) costs 7 power points base for 7d6 damage, but if you want to do more damage, you need to pay 1 power point per die (exactly like 5e upcasting), up to your manifester level. However, other powers have Augments that aren't so linear- Energy Adaptation allows you to spend 4 more power points to manifest it as an immediate action.

The 3e spell point variant only used this "upcasting" for spells that deal dice of damage based on caster level, they didn't have neat alternative augment features.

This gives the Psion a bit more versatility, further enhanced by the fact that their blast powers let you choose their element when manifested, as opposed to needing to learn multiple separate spells.

 

[Yaarel]

The 3e Psion is a little more complex than that, however. Those are the base point costs; you also have augment costs if you want their powers to function at higher level. For example, Energy Ball (the Psion equivalent to Fireball) costs 7 power points base for 7d6 damage, but if you want to do more damage, you need to pay 1 power point per die (exactly like 5e upcasting), up to your manifester level. However, other powers have Augments that aren't so linear- Energy Adaptation allows you to spend 4 more power points to manifest it as an immediate action.

3e augment = 5e "at higher levels"

 

[Mecheon]

Sure, Sorcerer is redundant.

man you just know that's gonna have me coming out of my lair hissing "Flavour" and "Class identity" at folks. Which, ultimately, is also the thing we're stuck on at the moment. Because part of the psion flavour is that its not the same thing as wizard magic. Even if behind the scenes it works like a normal spell, mechanically it has to be its own distinct 'thing' to be psychic powers. Which, honestly, is a simple enough solution given cleric spells are their own thing. No synergies, wizards don't get them unless they pick the one inevitable "Wizard except you get the psion spells" subclass

Mind I'd hitched my trailer up to Kibble's psion for yonks now so

 

[Crimson Longinus]

man you just know that's gonna have me coming out of my lair hissing "Flavour" and "Class identity" at folks.

Sure. I just feel that Warlock mechanics produce Sorcerer flavour better than the Sorcerer mechanics do. I've said this seven thousand times already on this forum, but always-on magics and rapidly recharging spells both scream 'innately magical being' to me.

Which, ultimately, is also the thing we're stuck on at the moment. Because part of the psion flavour is that its not the same thing as wizard magic. Even if behind the scenes it works like a normal spell, mechanically it has to be its own distinct 'thing' to be psychic powers. Which, honestly, is a simple enough solution given cleric spells are their own thing. No synergies, wizards don't get them unless they pick the one inevitable "Wizard except you get the psion spells" subclass

Right. In fiction Cleric and Wizard spells have completely different source, yet they work using the same basic mechanics. And same with every other caster. So that's why to me it would seem utterly bizarre that Psion would somehow need bespoke mechanics. I simply don't buy the notion that they're more different from all the existing casters than those casters are from each other.

 

[Minigiant]

No, I fully get that. What I don't get why people keep wasting time for clamouring some perfect pipe-dream vision of a Psion with completely new bespoke mechanics that WotC is never going to print. If you have such a clear vision, write it an use it in your own games. Problem solved.

We aren't

The topic asks what's the big deal. So we answered and gave our wishlists. Very few people expect to get much if any of their Psionics wishlist from WOTC and few stated so.

No it won't. At least not more than the current multiclassing. (Which is a problem and should be addressed, but also optional.)

Yeah it will if the optional rules or multiclassing and feats are used. And WOTC half expects you to use them. The most broken element of multicassing is full casting as it almost fully stacks and their tier features are tied to the spell system and not the classes themselves.

The true brokenness held back by the fact that there is no other INT full casterfor wizards to multiclass with that has spells the wizard doesn't already have.

5e multiclasses for spellcasters is powerful within the levels people actually play.

No. A completely new untested system has a high chance of being broken. Furthermore, your whole notion of the spell psion being broken rests on the idea of WotC would allow broken combos, not realising that they would be broken. And if they don't realise that, then they are not gonna realise the potential balance issues in a brand new system either.

No. My premise is that they LIKE the broken combos and purposely design to give classes (especially the wizard) more spells.

With a new system, their favoritism would cloud their judgement and cause them to cancel broken ideas as seen in the Mystic. Because if they create a new system and it breaks, they will recieve the blame. But for many fans, you can't break the wizard and anything is allowed.

The cleric also has some favoritism and that how the OP Twilight and Peace clerics just through QA.

Raise awareness of the multiclassing and spell sharing being broken, as that's the root of your actual (or at least stated) issue.

It's
Spell sharing Feats
Multiclassing
And
5e Spell sharing and Slot stacking

I've complained about it in every book thread and every UA thread. But it's just little old me.

I have my big "I told you so" sign ready for when 2026 comes around and DMs are crying about uber-wizards again.

 

[Staffan]

Can you help me understand what is missing other than refluffing? What is wrong with a Tasha sorc other than fluff? You cast psionic spells, you get spell points, etc. It's essentially the 3E psion using Cha instead of Int for spell DC.

We've already been through this numerous times.

1. It's too Far Realm-based.
2. It lacks breadth. It is distinctly a subset of the sorcerer and thus might work if you have one player who wants to play a psion in a world where psionics is almost unknown, but it is entirely unsuited to a Dark Sun campaign or an Eberron campaign focusing on Sarlona, the Kalashtar, and/or the Inspired, where you'd want the ability to have a dozen different psions who all have different abilities, just like you can have a dozen different wizards who all have different spells.
3. Many specific abilities are lacking, such as low-level telekinesis, pyrokinesis, healing, body modification, psychic illusions, and assorted other classic psionic abilities. Most of these should be able to be expressed in many different ways. For example, you can use telekinesis for protection (either long-term like mage armor or short-term like shield or blade ward), lifting moderate weights, unlocking doors, offense (either via direct bolts of force or by throwing things around). You can do some of them via regular sorcerer spells, but then you won't get the benefits of psionic sorcery.