D&D General What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?

[Yaarel]

@James Gasik, @glass


Here is an example from earlier in this thread. It is what the Psion spell looks like using the 3e format, and what the same spell would look like using the 5e format.

3e CHARM, PSIONIC
Telepathy (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: 1
Display: Mental
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close
Target: 1 humanoid
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 1

As the Charm Person spell.

Augment: You can augment this power in one or more of the following ways.
1. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power can also affect an animal, a fey, a giant, a magical beast, or a monstrous humanoid.
2. If you spend 4 additional power points, this power can also affect an aberration, a dragon, an elemental, or an outsider.
3. If you spend 4 additional power points, this powers duration increases to 1 day per level.
In addition, for every additional 2 power points you spend, the DC increases by 1.



5e CHARM
1st-level enchantment

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 hour

You enhance the way an other mind perceives you. You attempt to charm a Humanoid that you can see. It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and does so with advantage if you or your allies are fighting it. If it fails the saving throw, it incurs the Charmed condition toward you, and regards you as a friendly acquaintance. The spell also ends if you or your allies do anything harmful to it. At the end of the spell, it knows you charmed it.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell:
For two slot levels higher, the creature types can be any.
For two slot levels higher, the duration increases to one day.

 

[James Gasik]

Functionally the same, yes. Though whether or not 5e can handle that level of versatility, with one power subbing for Cham Person, Charm Monster, Mass Charm, etc. would remain to be seen. I mean, it's exactly what 3e did and was fine there, but I wonder if people won't balk at at the "Swiss Army Psion".

Oh one little detail. Components. Traditionally Psions didn't use Verbal, Somatic, or Material components when manifesting their powers. I don't think it's broken to have V, S, since many "Hollywood Psychics" do the "psychic pose" or even the classic "I am the Master, and you will obey me!" routine, but Material components would be quite weird.

I'll let others argue that flavor though. : )

 

[Yaarel]

Functionally the same, yes. Though whether or not 5e can handle that level of versatility, with one power subbing for Cham Person, Charm Monster, Mass Charm, etc. would remain to be seen.

Actually, 5e spell consolidation should have already combined these redundant spells into a single spell. Compare how all the redundant 3e Cure Wounds spells (Light, Moderate, Serious, Critical) did combine into a single 5e Cure Wounds spell.

Oh one little detail. Components. Traditionally Psions didn't use Verbal, Somatic, or Material components when manifesting their powers. I don't think it's broken to have V, S, since many "Hollywood Psychics" do the "psychic pose" or even the classic "I am the Master, and you will obey me!" routine, but Material components would be quite weird.

I'll let others argue that flavor though. : )

This spell is a spell, so it has the normal spell format.

However, the Psion class has as a feature, the "innate spellcasting" feature that casts its spells without any components.

 

[James Gasik]

Does this mean that this spell is something you'd expect other classes to get? Since you mentioned this is how you feel Charm should have been handled all along?

 

[Maxperson]

The 3e Psion is both spell slots and spontaneous casting, both of which preexist it.

The 3e psion can partially use powers. Look up psionic charm. He can spend less points than Charm Monster to charm some monsters and can pick and choose which types to charm, unlike any other caster in the game. And there are MANY abilities like that. Examples.

Anchored Navigation used as normal is 7 power points, but it can be augmented for 6 more and it will extend across planes.
Animal Affinity used as normal is 3 power points, but for each additional 5 points you get +4 to another ability score.

I didn't even have to look at all of the A list to find multiple examples. Psionics in 3e was a unique system that no other caster type could reproduce.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure - you're exchanging depth of power for breadth of capability. I was just pointing out that it isn't balanced in the slots available but rather in the access to those higher level spells. Which actually makes sense in terms of the fiction as well - the multiclass caster should probably get shut out of those higher power level spells because they're focusing on breadth of knowledge/ability rather than depth of knowledge/ability.

Agreed.

 

[Maxperson]

That's not how 5e casting works.

A Wizard3/"Psion"3 would have the same slots as a Wizard 6. They would not be able to prepare or know 3rd level spells but they can upcast a 1st or 2ns level spell to a 3rd level slot.

Yes, but upcasting a 1st or 2nd level spell to 3rd level is generally weaker than casting a 3rd level spell.

 

[Maxperson]

The 3e psionic system is a very cleverly hidden spell point system that uses the basic spellcasting mechanics of 3e but hides them as points - mechanically you could replicated it pretty well with a modified Sorcerer mechanic where the Sorcerer gets only points, no slots, and has a restricted spell list that only has psionic spells on it. And then rename "spells" to "powers" for the folks who really hate the idea of psionic characters "casting spells".

Mechanically that would replicate the feel of the 3e system fairly well. Honestly if you're able to make yourself use the horrible "disassociated mechanics" you can do this pretty much right now with the Sorcerer.

The 3e psionic classes were more than just spell points as I pointed out a few minutes ago in a previous post. Their ability to augment and the ways that they augmented are different than anything else in 3e or 5e.

 

[Maxperson]

You are missing the point.

The 5e designers both like giving Wizards Everything AND like stacking lists and features.

So if you make a spell using Psion class, the Wizard will get access to the 1st level Telekinetic Grasp and the whatever spell that are created for Psions. And whatever psionic spells they don't have, a wizard can snag with dips in wizard or a feat.

Because that's because 5e's design philosophy is to share spells.

That's why Wizards have Cure Wounds, Animal Friendship, Dissonant Whispers, Armor of Agathys and more all on their list.

 

[Yaarel]

Does this mean that this spell is something you'd expect other classes to get? Since you mentioned this is how you feel Charm should have been handled all along?

The Wizard already has all of the redundant Charm spells, so this one spell replacing all of them is fine.

However, a "Real" Telekinesis spell would also need to augment "At higher levels", and should not appear on the Wizard spell list.