D&D General What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?

[Jer]

That's still diminished power at the higher levels. A lot of us do play games into the teens and level 20.

Sure - you're exchanging depth of power for breadth of capability. I was just pointing out that it isn't balanced in the slots available but rather in the access to those higher level spells. Which actually makes sense in terms of the fiction as well - the multiclass caster should probably get shut out of those higher power level spells because they're focusing on breadth of knowledge/ability rather than depth of knowledge/ability.

 

[Minigiant]

What upcasting? They lack the access to the higher level slots of every class because of the lack of focus in one class.

That's not how 5e casting works.

A Wizard3/"Psion"3 would have the same slots as a Wizard 6. They would not be able to prepare or know 3rd level spells but they can upcast a 1st or 2ns level spell to a 3rd level slot.

If they focus on utility, buffs, and debuffs, 5e dual full casters are powerful

 

[Jer]

The 3e psionic system was also a new system. It wasn't just point based spells. And every one of the proposals is D&D if it makes it into the rulebooks.

The 3e psionic system is a very cleverly hidden spell point system that uses the basic spellcasting mechanics of 3e but hides them as points - mechanically you could replicated it pretty well with a modified Sorcerer mechanic where the Sorcerer gets only points, no slots, and has a restricted spell list that only has psionic spells on it. And then rename "spells" to "powers" for the folks who really hate the idea of psionic characters "casting spells".

Mechanically that would replicate the feel of the 3e system fairly well. Honestly if you're able to make yourself use the horrible "disassociated mechanics" you can do this pretty much right now with the Sorcerer.

 

[Yaarel]

Can you help me understand what is missing other than refluffing? What is wrong with a Tasha sorc other than fluff? You cast psionic spells, you get spell points, etc. It's essentially the 3E psion using Cha instead of Int for spell DC.

Actually there might be some agreement for what is missing.

On several occasions both @Minigiant and I actually agree about what remains frustratingly lacking.

Including real telekinesis at level 1 (not a floating hand). Real telepathy at level 1, such as the two-way Telepathy language described in the Monster Manual.

Many psionic spells need to be "always on". Certain Warlock invocations make certain spells always on. It might merit a new mechanic that allows the spell to "occupy" a spell slot for an indefinite length of time.

Obviously, the spellcasting must be innate without material spell components, but including without costly components, and heh, also no crystals.

 

[Minigiant]

Then they aren't going to design a separate parallel magic system to solve a problem they are not even aware of, are they?

You are missing the point.

The 5e designers both like giving Wizards Everything AND like stacking lists and features.

So if you make a spell using Psion class, the Wizard will get access to the 1st level Telekinetic Grasp and the whatever spell that are created for Psions. And whatever psionic spells they don't have, a wizard can snag with dips in wizard or a feat.

Because that's because 5e's design philosophy is to share spells.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

You are missing the point.

I'm not missing it, your point just simply makes no sense.

The 5e designers both like giving Wizards Everything AND like stacking lists and features.

So if you make a spell using Psion class, the Wizard will get access to the 1st level Telekinetic Grasp and the whatever spell that are created for Psions. And whatever psionic spells they don't have, a wizard can snag with dips in wizard or a feat.

Because that's because 5e's design philosophy is to share spells.

5e design philosophy is also to handle most manifesting of supernatural effects via spells. So you need to change the philosophy anyway, but refraining from giving the new psionic spells to wizard and cleric is colossally easier than designing and balancing a complete parallel magic system from scratch.

 

[Jer]

Actually there might be some agreement for what is missing.

On several occasions both @Minigiant and I actually agree about what remains frustratingly lacking.

Including real telekinesis at level 1 (not a floating hand). Real telepathy at level 1, such as the two-way Telepathy language described in the Monster Manual.

Mind Link is a kalashtar ability IIRC - I don't know why Tasha's decided to make the Telepathic Feat anything other than Mind Link.

Many psionic spells need to be "always on". Certain Warlock invocations make certain spells always on. It might merit a new mechanic that allows the spell to "occupy" a spell slot for an indefinite length of time.

I would argue that this is Concentration in 5e. A mechanic that allows a psionic character to maintain multiple Concentration spells as they level up would be an interesting take.

Obviously, the spellcasting must innate without material spell components, but including without costly components, and heh, also no crystals.

The Tasha's Sorc already has this one for their psionic spells, it would just need to be expanded to all spells on their list.

 

[glass]

The 3e Psion is both spell slots and spontaneous casting, both of which preexist it.

The 3e Psion has nothing to do with spell slots. I am literally sitting here with both the Psionics Handbook (3.0) and the Expanded Psionics Handbook (3.5), and I can assure you that they are purely points based. Your assertions to the contrary do not get any more accurate just because you keep repeating them.

_
glass.

 

[Minigiant]

I'm not missing it, your point just simply makes no sense.

Well look at your next statement.

5e design philosophy is also to handle most manifesting of supernatural effects via spells. So you need to change the philosophy anyway, but refraining from giving the new psionic spells to wizard and cleric is colossally easier than designing and balancing a complete parallel magic system from scratch

It's easy.

The problem is they won't do it because They LIKE sharing spells between classes and especially with the wizard and think it's good

"All you gotta do to join is not eat the cookie"

Cookie Monsters of the Coast: Hmmm... What if I eat da cookie and still join?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

It's easy.

The problem is they won't do it because They LIKE sharing spells between classes and especially with the wizard and think it's good

"All you gotta do to join is not eat the cookie"

Cookie Monsters of the Coast: Hmmm... What if I eat da cookie and still join?

Right. And given than they don't think this is problem (and you seem to firmly believe this is their essential trait that cannot be changed) why would they then design a parallel magic system that prevents such sharing? Your whole argument is completely incoherent.