D&D General What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?

[Maxperson]

You get 5th level spells at level 9, when most campaigns end.

And at level 9 your multiclassed character has no 5th level spells, which makes you weaker than a single classed level 9 caster who does. The increased versatility doesn't compensate for the actual spells of that level. It's better than 3e multiclassing where you didn't even get the slots, but upcasting isn't as good as the spells of that level.

 

[Minigiant]

But the Sorcerer mechanics suck. I dont want those mechanics. Heh fiddly Sorcerer points can die in a fire.

The Psion needs to built from scratch, from the ground up, around the things that telepaths, telekineticists, creators, shapeshifters, psychic healers, and spacetime controllers and sensors can do.

The Sorcerer is one of those bias and favoritism issues I talked about.

The designers really didn't care about Sorcerer's. So when the Sorcerer playtest was down voted, they just quit. They didn't push origins enough.


The dragon sorcerer got released with little dragon magic.

That to me is a core flavor and design issue with 5e. The designers were so traditional that anything outside of the oldest core was halfway done. It's behind some of my worry for Psions.

 

[Maxperson]

Psions do not cast spells, they manifest powers. They do not use spell points, they use power points, and most fundamentally they have nothing whatsoever to do with slots. Points are fungible in a way that slots are not, and this is a significant difference.

This is really semantics. Manifesting powers and casting spells are pretty much the same thing. As are power points vs. spell points. And he is correct that the optional rule from the UA granted spell points based on spell slots.

Where he goes wrong is in matching those spell points up to power points. A 5th level Psion in 3e had 10 power points at 5th level. A 5th level spell point wizard would have 14. The Psion's bonus power points also didn't track as a direct match-up to bonus spells for casters.

 

[Maxperson]

I am not sure to what extent 5e's "At higher levels" actually is used to permit significantly new effects, but it certainly could be. OTOH, even if they were used to exactly the same extent, there would still be a fundamental difference because augmentation is based on points and (barring optional varients), "at higher levels" is based on slots.

It could be, but isn't as it currently stands and I see no reason to make augment a general spell ability, rather than a psionic class ability.

 

[Yaarel]

So make it a class feature. Anyone can learn Anchored Navigation, but only psions can make use of augment because their class feature allows it. Easy peasy.

It is extremely important to think about what a Psion needs to do narratively, and to ignore distractions about weird mechanics. If the Psion needs to do something that current mechanics cant do, then new mechanics will emerge ergonomically as the need arises. Dont put the cart before the horse.

Heh, forgive me for being blunt. To only allow the Psion CLASS to use SPELL augments, is a terrible idea designwise.

Either: it would require rewriting every thematically applicable spell, including duplicating clones for every new spell that is published in the future.

Or: it would mean writing a Warlock-style invocation for each and every spell ever.

Such redundancy is breath-takingly bad.

Just let spells be spells. Let spells be good at what they do well in the ways that they do it well. Spells are a separate design space.

The balance of a spell relies on how it compares to other spells in the same slot level. To entangle them too much with other complications such as class features will eventually break the game engine and destroy D&D 5e.

Spells are a design space that has survived the test of time, by 40 years of trial and error. Nothing else in D&D can handle the levels of power that spells can.

There is a need for certain new spells that need to be on the Psion spell list. But these spells will do whatever spells need to do.

Let spells be spells.

 

[glass]

This is really semantics. Manifesting powers and casting spells are pretty much the same thing. As are power points vs. spell points. And he is correct that the optional rule from the UA granted spell points based on spell slots.

Yes, of course it is semantics. Semantics is the study of the meaning of words, and different words meaning different things is kinda the point. EDIT: And choosing different words can have a significant effect on flavour and feel, if if the dictionary definitions of those words are near identical.

You could have a spell system that looks a lot like the 3e manifesting system (and did, as an at least one optional variant), but psionic powers not being spells is still significant, both in terms of flavour/feel and because psionic powers interact in the same way with mechanics that affect spells (even with psionics/magic transparency turned on).

It is extremely important to think about what a Psion needs to do narratively, and to ignore distractions about weird mechanics.

Not everybody agrees that mechanics are "distractions". Still, at least you did not repeat the naughty word about 3e psions using slots for the umpteenth time, so yay for progress I guess!

_
glass.

 

[Minigiant]

And at level 9 your multiclassed character has no 5th level spells, which makes you weaker than a single classed level 9 caster who does. The increased versatility doesn't compensate for the actual spells of that level. It's better than 3e multiclassing where you didn't even get the slots, but upcasting isn't as good as the spells of that level.

Like I said, unless you are a blaster, none of that matters.

 

[Yaarel]

Regarding the Warlock. If short rests disappear from 5e, what will the Warlock look like?

I wonder if it is enough for the Warlock to have a number of spell slots equal to the proficiency bonus per day, PLUS one 10-minute ritual "Refocus Meditation" per day to restore one spent slot.

Effectively, the Warlock has 3 slot 1 spells per day at level 1, and eventually 7 slot 5 spells at level 17.

Note that the Warlock arcanums handle slot 6 to 9 spells separately.

Possibly, the spells should go up to slot 6 at level 13, then the arcanums handle the slot 7 to 9 spells separately.



The Warlock is of interest because its spellcasting chassis - if it survives a transition to long rests only - is suitable for the mechanical needs of a Psion, including both powerful at-will cantrips and invocations, and powerful world-altering high level effects.

 

[James Gasik]

Like I said, unless you are a blaster, none of that matters.

Actually even if you are a blaster, there are a few spells that upcast very well; I've had good results with Erupting Earth.

 

[Shardstone]

I don't want 3E psionics to be the source of 5E psionics. Sorry, but with 3 editions worth of material, I think its time that we sublimate everything into a new streamlined system with powers that draw on not just D&D's past but also the cultural touchstones of today. Most 3E Psionics were literally just spells. We can do better then that.