What about skills ?

[WyzardWhately]

Here's a thought...what if we have fewer skill choices to make?

Say you want to play a rogue. That's a bunch of skills. The idea in 4E is that you can sit down, gin up a character, and jump in. And that there will not be as many choices, and certainly fewer choices that make your character suck in the long run. So, lets posit that with the cut down skill list, a rogue gets six skills plus his INT modifier trained. Here's where I'm going: What if you don't have to pick all of them? What if a rogue is automatically trained in, say, stealth and thievery, or whatever the absolutely essential rogue functions are. And then you just get a relatively small number of picks. Wizards might get Arcana automatically, Clerics might get Religion. Etc.

It seems like the sort of flexibility that you'd lose is mostly the "bad" kind (playing a rogue who can't sneak? That's a rookie move and you hate to see that happen.), it'd give you a couple choices for customization, it's easy to house-rule, and it makes chargen faster.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

the idea of skills becoming more expensive the higher they are is fine. Another advantage is that the actual attribute bonus really counts!

But the problem is still there, that you should usually learn basics of skills just by leveling up. (ok, if skills start at 1 point for the first rank, usually every character is trained in most skills)

What I would prefer is a fixed cost for all skills depending how usefull they are. And every point you put into that skill afterwards (by taking feats) increases your "rank" by 1.

Example:
(Skillpoints are dependant on class and int and raise retroactively if your int raises)

perception: cost 3 points. (4 if not class skill)

basic check: 1/2 Level + wisdom + 5 (if trained) + 1/aditional skillpoint spent. (Maximum 5) + 1/2aditional skillpoints (max 5)

Feat: Skill training: you gain 5 skillpoints.

This mechanic would include the old skilltraining feat and include a nice scaling skill focus.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Skills: Shh... it's subliminal...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It seems like the sort of flexibility that you'd lose is mostly the "bad" kind (playing a rogue who can't sneak? That's a rookie move and you hate to see that happen.), it'd give you a couple choices for customization, it's easy to house-rule, and it makes chargen faster.

actually thats genious. I always liked ADnD 2nd edition bard variants having bonus skills. Bonuses are always good for psyche.

In D&D 3.0 my biggest grief was bards having to spend 2 of their skills on Perform and use magic device to be capable of what an ADnD Bard can do without spending any skillpoint.

And a thief having to chose search, spot, listen, move silently, hide and use magic device leaves him 2 maxed skills worth of skillpoints somehow felt very wrong. (Even with int 18 and race human you had some hard choices which skills to invest)

Or a wizard/cleric/sorcerer having to know Concentration and spellcraft maxed leaves them without any skillpoints for other skills.

So I can only agree with you: more equal "skillpoints" for all classes, bonus skills where appropriate.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Prior to 3E I played RuneQuest, which also has a skill system.

It is different than D&D in exactly the way some of the posters above think 4E should be -- it has a skill system that rewards generalists, not extreme specialization.

Basically, in RuneQuest it get harder to increase your skil the higher your skill already is.


I have often toyed with trying to make a d20 version of RuneQuest and one of the first things I always looked at was how to make a d20 version of the RuneQuest skill system. -- A d20 skill system that would reward skill generalists.

You basically have to give every class way more skill points, but then increase the cost for skills to be enhanced, much the way point buy works now for ability score purchase at character creation.

Balance things where a PC gets enough skill points to max out the number of skills they can max out with the existing rules, at any given level

BUT

Instead, they could use those skill points on a larger number of skills, and get more 'bang for the buck', because they would be paying fewer skill points per rank.

I never completed the project unfortunately.

Ken

 

[FourthBear]

If I were trying to decide what skills to put in the PH, I would look at the skills most commonly called upon in published adventures (both in-house and third party). I know that I very often see Knowledge (History) and similar being referenced in adventures and campaigns, because writers love skills that let them relate backstory. I see more History and Religion checks than Balance or Craft checks.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I don't mind this, but I'm thinking of a few different ways to slip noncombat/nonadventuring skills back in. Part of me thinks I'll do it like how they've put the nonadventuring areas of control for deities into adventuring deities: pair Craft or Profession or whatever with one of the more useful skills, say that it fullfills both purposes.

Part of me wants to have "noncombat roles," and basically greatly expand the use of Professions. Every skill would be rolled into a more general profession, and the PC's would choose one of those general professions. There'd be a Crafter, a Sage, a Sneak, etc., and both useful and nonuseful skills would be lumped into each silo.

Part of me wants to make each nonheroic skill potentially heroic. So you'd have a heroic tailor who could use his needle and thread to tie up enemies and to weave magical shirts, and you'd have the heroic burglar who could climb sheer walls of ice and penetrate the D&D equivalent of Fort Knox.

Part of me is playing around with the idea of background from the PHBII as a possible solution.

We'll see. I know I still want my PC's to be able to say "before I found the magic Sword of Stabbitty Power, I was a humble shoemaker!" I just don't know if I want them to say

"And that's why I know about where to put your feet, and that's how I learned about traps!"

or

"And that's why I can make you these magical shoes of stealth!"

or

"And that's why I know the secret language of Shoemaker Sprites!"

or

"And that's what I do when I'm not slaying dragons, those were the good ol' days!"

or some combination of all of them.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Part of me wants to make each nonheroic skill potentially heroic. So you'd have a heroic tailor who could use his needle and thread to tie up enemies and to weave magical shirts, and you'd have the heroic burglar who could climb sheer walls of ice and penetrate the D&D equivalent of Fort Knox.

Minor nitpick: I think burglary can safely be said to be covered under the heroic skill set.

REST OF KM's post

Brilliant! Personally, I'd prefer to go with just allowing PCs to have whatever noncombat skills they like, but the idea of tying nonheroic skills to heroic skills, or of allowing heroic uses for nonheroic skills, is appealing.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Brilliant! Personally, I'd prefer to go with just allowing PCs to have whatever noncombat skills they like, but the idea of tying nonheroic skills to heroic skills, or of allowing heroic uses for nonheroic skills, is appealing.

I will always have a soft spot for the 20th level commoner in my games.

"You see that lush tropical garden over there, kiddo? Well, three years ago that was a desert. You know what changed it? These hands, these feet, this plow. Your little trick with the magic wand and the fire is nice and all, but who does it feed? Who does it clothe? Who does it shade? I'd be a little more careful about callin' myself a hero, if'n I were you."

 

[Raduin711]

Alright, so looking at the pit fiend again...

These would appear to be the reference for non-proficient skills. (I thought it interesting that now the order seems to put Wis after Dex, instead of between Int and Cha...)

Str 32 (+24) Dex 24 (+20) Wis 20 (+18)
Con 27 (+21) Int 22 (+19) Cha 28 (+22)

If we space this out, and fill in the blanks, it is pretty clear that in 4e the bonus does go up every even number.


01..+08
02..+09
03..+09
04..+10
05..+10
06..+11
07..+11
08..+12
09..+12
10..+13
11..+13
12..+14
13..+14
14..+15
15..+15
16..+16
17..+16
18..+17
19..+17
20..+18
21..+18
22..+19
23..+19
24..+20
25..+20
26..+21
27..+21
28..+22
29..+22
30..+23
31..+23
32..+24


When you get back to 1 and 0, you are left at +8, which would imply that if 0-1 gives a +0 bonus in 4e, then the bonus he gets to his nonproficient skills for being a 26th level Elite Soldier (leader) whatever.

UNLESS bonuses start at 12 (and everything below that is just +0, probably) which would make his bonus... +13, which is half of 26.

As for proficient skills, it is probably a +5, since intimidate and bluff are 27, which is 5 over his nonproficiency for Charisma. Religion is based off of Int it would appear, since his +24 is 5 over his int bonus.