What are everyones thoughts on Iron Heroes?

[JohnSnow]

Well, I'm out of town the first part of next week but I pre-ordered Iron Heroes thru Amazon. So it should arrive about when I get back home.

This game looks like a lot of fun to me. I've always wanted mechanically distinct options for fighter types to encourage them to pull off maneuvers more complicated than "I whack him." Kevin (Piratecat) was playtesting this game and he called it "heroic asskicking" in the Conan mode. Tokens sound like something extra to manage, but if they allow the PCs to have cool options that aren't constrained by some wonky "X uses/day" mechanic, I'm all for them. The playtesters haven't had anything but good things to say about 'em, so I bet they play a lot easier than initial impressions might suggest.

On the surface, it may appear that the nature of the IH rules makes for longer combats but it takes about the same amount of time...... the caveat being equal familiarity with the core and IH rules. The first several combats will take more time as players and the DM get familiar with the IH rules.

Ugh...if it requires the same level of knowledge to run IH as 3.5, then that is a nightmarish amount of additional rules. I really dislike the whole token/action point model. It just adds additional complexity and recording keeping to the game.

I think you may be reading into this a little. BlackMoria didn't say "Iron Heroes takes as long to master as D&D." He said your first several combats will take longer than D&D as you learn the new rules. Personally, I'd gauge "first several" to mean 7-10. In other words, there's a learning curve as you master tokens, "combat stunts," and a few other new rules. Of course, as I understand the game, once you've mastered those, that's it. Characters don't seem to get any "brand new abilities" (like spells with totally different mechanics) at high levels. Rather, from what we've seen, their high-level abilities are just extensions of their low-level ones that use the same basic mechanic. Ergo, no continuous learning curve.

Not having to constantly learn new mechanics as you level up is HUGE! The archer class has 20 abilities it can trigger. That's it. The hunter has fewer than that. Even if all 10 classes averaged 20 (which I doubt!), that's still fewer special abilities to learn than there are wizard (or cleric or druid) spells in the PHB alone. And most of the abilities use familiar mechanics after the unfamiliar trigger (e.g. Deadly Shot - spend 2 tokens to add 1/2 your dex bonus to damage on one attack). Another example is that many of the high-level ones build off the low-level ones (i.e. Improved Deadly Shot - spend 2 tokens to add your dex bonus to damage on all your attacks this round). That doesn't seem like it'll take terribly long to learn - but I'm not surprised it takes a little time.

(Oh, and, as an aside, tokens are "per encounter" so you probably spend 'em about as fast as you can get them, meaning they're only a resource to track during combat, not after).

Remember - the spell and magic item rules are gone. GONE. Attacks of Opportunity have been greatly simplified. Stunts and skill challenges both use very simple d20-based mechanics.

I dunno, it just doesn't sound like that much extra to me. On the other hand, I LIKE combat scenes, so anything to make combat cooler is cool with me. Of course, I'm still gonna order an Iron Heroes Battlebox from Fiery Dragon...

 

[romp]

It is starting to sound like the PCs in IH are like characters in a MMORPG, uses combat stunts/tokens as a way of making the characters more like from WoW or Guild Wars or Everquest or whathaveyou, that seems to fit around what Mike Mearls wrote about IH being "what you get as opposed to what you lose" (I am paraphrasing). This seems to be a good paradigm for adventuring characters though. It is certainly one that I can wrap my headaround with some thought. The magic system will be something I am really looking forward to seeing. As a DM it is most important to be able to visualize what kinds of things your group is capable of so that you can properly challenge them with monsters and NPC villian tactics. IH might help me in this respect. Really looking forward to this. Gonna go to the FLGS and reserve a copy for myself and order the .pdf as soon as it come out.

 

[Dragonblade]

I am interested in Iron Heroes but have some concerns.

How does it play with standard D&D? For example, Iron Heroes is all about building the abilities that you would otherwise get from magic items into the classes. Thats fine and good but can I play regular D&D characters alongside Iron Heroes characters? That is the most important question.

Since IH classes are built with extra abilities to compensate for the lack of magic items, what happens when you toss in IH PCs into a standard D&D game that offers lots of magic items? Do the IH characters now get their special abilities PLUS magic items and thus far outstrip a PHB PC? That won't really work for me.

I'd like to be able to offer IH classes alongside core classes with no considerations or conversions required. Also I don't mind resource management, but I hate resource management that spoils the suspension of disbelief.

For example, the fact that a paladin can only smite X times per day really drives me freaking insane!!!!!!!!!

"Sorry, my faithful servant, I know you really need to smite that lich, but you have already used up your daily allotment of smites for the day." Seriously, who has ever heard of that scene in ANY fantasy novel ever?????? Game mechanics should never trump imaginative storytelling.

I hope (but doubt) that IH addresses this issue and provides a resource management system that is balanced but also translates effectively from how it plays on the game table to my imagination without ruining my suspension of disbelief. In other words, I would prefer no X times per day abilities. They should just be banned outright from all of d20.

And finally, my last concern is, can you run IH as a DM and effectively challenge a party of IH PCs without pulling your hair out trying to manage resources for multiple NPC opponents? Heck, this is something that even standard D&D needs.

 

[ThirdWizard]

How does it play with standard D&D? For example, Iron Heroes is all about building the abilities that you would otherwise get from magic items into the classes. Thats fine and good but can I play regular D&D characters alongside Iron Heroes characters? That is the most important question.

All sources point to yes, mostly. An IH PC of a certain level should be equal in power to a D&D PC of that same level. Certain things will have to be converted, however, from what I understand from reading the very long IH thread and keeping up with the articles. Whether this is true or not is yet to be seen, of course.

Since IH classes are built with extra abilities to compensate for the lack of magic items, what happens when you toss in IH PCs into a standard D&D game that offers lots of magic items? Do the IH characters now get their special abilities PLUS magic items and thus far outstrip a PHB PC? That won't really work for me.

If they get magic items, they'll be way too powerful.

I hope (but doubt) that IH addresses this issue and provides a resource management system that is balanced but also translates effectively from how it plays on the game table to my imagination without ruining my suspension of disbelief. In other words, I would prefer no X times per day abilities. They should just be banned outright from all of d20.

I can't think of any X times/day abilities in IH from what I've read online. If they're in it, they're rare. Normally you use tokens to use special abilities, and tokens are reset every encounter. Spellcasting has been very tightly sealed, and we know almost nothing about the arcanist, the spellcaster of IH. Whether they work on a spells/day basis is still unknown.

And finally, my last concern is, can you run IH as a DM and effectively challenge a party of IH PCs without pulling your hair out trying to manage resources for multiple NPC opponents? Heck, this is something that even standard D&D needs.

One of the big things IH promises is drastically reduced workload for the DM. This is in prep-work and in game work (in IH terms at least, since NPCs don't use tokens). Big claims have been made on creating high level NPCs in very little time.

 

[scadgrad]

That is great for some people, but 3.5 seems gamist enough for anyone. I am not interested in playing Warhammer Fantasy Skirmish.

Warhammer Fantasy Skirmish is actually a very simple game and not nearly as complex as 3.X D&D's melee rules. It's essentially the same system as Mordheim (which is available as free download, if anyone's interested I can probably find the link).

 

[Yair]

For example, the fact that a paladin can only smite X times per day really drives me freaking insane!!!!!!!!!

"Sorry, my faithful servant, I know you really need to smite that lich, but you have already used up your daily allotment of smites for the day." Seriously, who has ever heard of that scene in ANY fantasy novel ever?????? Game mechanics should never trump imaginative storytelling.

I hope (but doubt) that IH addresses this issue and provides a resource management system that is balanced but also translates effectively from how it plays on the game table to my imagination without ruining my suspension of disbelief. In other words, I would prefer no X times per day abilities. They should just be banned outright from all of d20.

Perhaps the most alluring thing in IH, for me, is just this point. IH seems to be designed to balance per encounter rather than per day, and even then you don't get x/encounter but rather spend actions to get tokens to do the actions you want... so it's dynamic. No more problems of powerful psions in a one-encounter-per-day campaign. No more senseless restricitons like smite 1/day, or casting magic missile 3/day. This really is its most appealing point for me.

The second point is having a non-magic-item advancement that's balanced and playable. That's another key attraction.

The overly detailed battle can be good or bad, I'm not sure. Seems to offer great flavor and diversity, but at the cost of immense complexity and DM prep-time. Of course, IH claims it doesn't cost anything. Depending on how that pans out, I may adopt IH or not. We'll see.

 

[Dragonblade]

All sources point to yes, mostly. An IH PC of a certain level should be equal in power to a D&D PC of that same level. Certain things will have to be converted, however, from what I understand from reading the very long IH thread and keeping up with the articles. Whether this is true or not is yet to be seen, of course.

If they get magic items, they'll be way too powerful.

Thanks for the response. But see, if IH characters cannot get magic items, then you can't really run them in standard D&D games or adventures without some serious rewriting. That's a major inconvenience.

I want to be able to add IH to my regular D&D game as a supplement to the existing core classes. Not replace the existing core classes. If IH characters becoming too powerful is an issue in a standard magic-item rich D&D campaign, then I consider that a flaw in the book's design.

A flaw that could easily be remedied if IH character abilities are couched in the language used for existing magic items. For example, if an IH special ability grants a deflection bonus to AC, that won't cause balance issues because magic items that grant deflection bonuses won't be usable by that IH character unless that item's bonus exceeds the character's bonus. So, I can rest easy giving out Rings of Protection knowing that the standard PHB fighter can benefit while the IH hero cannot and doesn't become unbalanced. But if IH abilities all grant unnamed bonuses and such, then I consider that poor game design because it could have been avoided.

Granted, I don't know what's in the book. So, I could be totally wrong. In which case, I'll happily buy the book and give my apologies to Mike Mearls and Monte.

 

[Dragonblade]

Perhaps the most alluring thing in IH, for me, is just this point. IH seems to be designed to balance per encounter rather than per day, and even then you don't get x/encounter but rather spend actions to get tokens to do the actions you want... so it's dynamic. No more problems of powerful psions in a one-encounter-per-day campaign. No more senseless restricitons like smite 1/day, or casting magic missile 3/day. This really is its most appealing point for me.

Now if that's true, that will be a great thing!

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Thanks for the response. But see, if IH characters cannot get magic items, then you can't really run them in standard D&D games or adventures without some serious rewriting. That's a major inconvenience.

I'd guess that what I and the other guys who plan on running DnD adventures with IH plan to do is simply drop all or most references to magic items from the game.

It remains to be seen, I'm always missing things, but I'm fairly confident in thinking that that'll be a pretty easy rewrite.

I want to be able to add IH to my regular D&D game as a supplement to the existing core classes. Not replace the existing core classes. If IH characters becoming too powerful is an issue in a standard magic-item rich D&D campaign, then I consider that a flaw in the book's design.

I don't know that the game is going to write up the bonuses in magic item terms, but from what's been said it seems as though it has been designed to allow you to easilly convert all DnD characters over to IH magic item light or to drop the abilities from IH characters to make them DnD heavy magic item compatible.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

This is the first non-licensed OGL game I've been really, really interested in. No offense to Monte's Arcana Unearthed - I've just always been more interested in fighter-heavy game concepts. I'm looking forward to this quite a bit. Mike Mearls seems to consistently produce material that really speaks to my interests.