I am just going by what I think I could see, and I have 20/20 vision. I may be wrong, because I am just guessing, but I don't think I could make out details like that at a mile. Perhaps you could explain your calculations.
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D&D 5E What are the Roles now?
- Thread starter Unwise
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I am just going by what I think I could see, and I have 20/20 vision. I may be wrong, because I am just guessing, but I don't think I could make out details like that at a mile. Perhaps you could explain your calculations.
I can't even tell what people are arguing about in this topic any more. As someone who likes 4E and Basic and hates 3.5, I don't even see edition warring... Just people saying "yeah, I don't like the way roles work in your system but I'm totally cool with you liking it" for at least the last 15 pages between odd things regarding hit points of the age old wizards > fighter stuff.
You can definitely say there are different roles to the game. You can definitely divide them up in a bunch of different ways. In combat there's ranged/melee damage, buffer, debuffer, healer, battlefield control... In my opinion it's fuzzy in 3.5 and 5 since they weren't made to be well-designed -games-, but there's definitely mechanical differences between classes and they fit different roles with different amounts of ease.
You can definitely say there are different roles to the game. You can definitely divide them up in a bunch of different ways. In combat there's ranged/melee damage, buffer, debuffer, healer, battlefield control... In my opinion it's fuzzy in 3.5 and 5 since they weren't made to be well-designed -games-, but there's definitely mechanical differences between classes and they fit different roles with different amounts of ease.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
Sure. What I did was Google for "snellen chart letter size" and then apply trigonometry to calculate size-equivalents at one mile. For example, the 20/20 line on the eye chart is 8.86 mm high at 20 feet (yeah, I know, I'm mixing metric and Imperial here). 1 mile is 264 times further away (264 * 20 feet = 5280 feet = 1 mile), so in order to appear the same size it would need to be 264 times bigger. 8.86mm * 264 = 2.34 meters. As far as basic visual resolution goes, that's pretty much it. Atmospheric conditions will affect this some (dust blurring the outlines, etc.), but considering that the average small-arms firefight in Afghanistan occurs at 500 meters (study: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA512331&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf) it seems clear that atmospheric effects are well under an order-of-magnitude effect, and that adventurers would be able to recognize orcs at similar distances even if they don't have the technology to engage them at that distance.
Very interesting facts, thank you. 2.34 meters is about 7', so a little bigger than a man. I guess you could see the shape of a man, plus a sword or shield if they're holding either. Maybe it would significantly harder to see goblins or other small humanoids, though.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
And anything non-humanoid. Our visual systems are optimized for seeing human-shaped things, hence the effectiveness of gillie suits.
Hussar
Legend
I'd point out that 500 meters is also a LOT less than one mile or even two. 500 meters is a third of a mile. And, we're talking about Afghanistan - as in desert conditions with almost no trees and a lot of flat open ground.
Again, that's pretty corner case. The reason NATO forces went to 5.56 mm was because average combat range is generally less than 300 meters.
But, again, you're also talking about encounters where they are automatically hostile. "You see a group of humanoids 500 yards away, what do you do"? Lots of times, groups might try to actually talk.
Again, that's pretty corner case. The reason NATO forces went to 5.56 mm was because average combat range is generally less than 300 meters.
But, again, you're also talking about encounters where they are automatically hostile. "You see a group of humanoids 500 yards away, what do you do"? Lots of times, groups might try to actually talk.
No. The thread has addressed the first post and topic title over and over again, in multitudinous directions. Several wonderful debates have been had, sharing alternate viewpoints and ironing out areas where everyone can agree or agree to disagree. Many of the contributors have been nothing short of great.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
Considering that your original contention was that it was unusual, nearly unbelievable, for combat to start more than "3 moves out," I'll consider the point to have been made. 500 yards is 50 moves out, 25 if dashing...
It's pretty simple to set up archery duels even if you don't think the humanoids are hostile. Just set someone up behind cover 180 yards back while someone else goes forward to negotiate and say hi at conversational range (15 feet?). If the balloon goes up, sprint back toward friendly lines. Either they chase you or they don't. If they do, your allies get 10 free rounds of attacks while everyone is running. It's far superior to bringing everyone forward with you.
This relies on you seeing the new guys in advance, but we've just established that seeing them is perfectly normal in clear terrain. (In rough terrain you play similar tricks using the Mobile feat, but the details are different.)
Hussar
Legend
Hang on. I said it was a pretty corner case, and it is. You need open ground, known opponents, clear weather and daytime (or low light vision at least) for this to occur. I don't know about you, but, that's generally not where encounters occur in my game. If there are any trees, buildings or even small rises and dips, heck, even long grass, and this won't work.
I mean, if you have 600 feet of open ground, why doesn't anyone have a mount? Your ten rounds of shooting means that the bad guys only have a move of 30. So, again, limited number of encounters. IOW, you need the following to be true:
1. One or both parties has to be recognised as hostile at a range of 600 feet. (you're not going to attack neutral targets are you?)
2. There must be clear vision. No inclement weather or night time. (again, limiting the number of encounters)
3. The parties must be limited to 30 foot speed. On horses, you'd get max 5 rounds - speed 60 for dash actions.
4. There cannot be any terrain limitations - a dungeon for example won't work, nor will any urban environment.
So, yeah, a long range archer duel is something I would expect to see maybe once per campaign, certainly less than once per level and I'd eat my shorts if it occurred once per session.
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