What changes from 3.0 to 3.5 should *not* have been made?

3.5e changes:

Classes - I probably like all the class changes.

Skills - Excellent changes to jump, more clarity for Hide, Handle Animal and some others

Feats - I dislike 2 for 1 on 2H power attack, I dislike nerfing of improved critical, I dislike nerfing of spell focus to +1 (they should have just ignored greater spell focus and kept spell focus at +2 IMO). Dislike non-stacking of feats - multiple enlarges of cones were great, extends and empowers were fine. Several combat manouvres which avoid AoO now also give a +4 bonus as well (disarm, trip) and I think this was too much.

Combat - I like simplification of cover and concealment rules, I like square facing for combat, grappling made more sensible too.

Spells - Biggest problem. For some reason they decided to modify something like 80% of the spells in the book. Changed ranges, changed area of effects. Lightning bolts changed into confusing lines, cones with fixed ranges that can't be extended, buff spells with miniscule durations, multi use spells split up (emotion, eyebite, symbol etc). There were some good changes but huge numbers of unnecessary ones.

DMG - greatly improved organsation, especially excellent wilderness rules.

MM - fiends recieve a much needed upgrade in power, better stat layouts (e.g. BAB and grapple bonus called out for each creature)

Cheers
 

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The changes I didn't like:

The "Pokemount" problem.
Gnomes as bard. ???????
Most of the fiddling with spells, like with the "animal buff" spells. Talk about making characters less reliant on their magic items and more on their own capacities, indeed.
Spell focus being +1. I would have made GSF be +3 and SF +2 instead.

On the other hand, here's a simple, easy, not-rule-affecting change that should have been done:
1. Create a new feat category entitled "Martial."
2. Give the fighter bonus martial feats.
3. Replace all the

Yada-Yada [General]
Blah blah blah, yada yada yada.
Special: This feat can be taken as a bonus feat by a fighter.
by

Yada-Yada [Martial]
Blah blah blah, yada yada yada.
 
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Lord Pendragon said:
Well, at first I didn't like the new PA. But after playing with it for a while I don't mind the extra damage. What I do mind is that taking it completely invalidates the Sword-and-Board style of fighting. So I figure that if Power Attack is 2-for-1 for the 2H fighters in the game (and it should be, the greatsword/axe should do the most damage in the game, hands down), then Combat Expertise should be 2-for-1 for the S&B fighters in the game (and it should be, using a shield should provide the best defense in the game, hands down.)

Only Light or Heavy shields, though.

I just like the symmetry of it. Both styles are still able to gain access to the opposite feat, but it works better for that combat style that most emphasizes its purpose.
Very neat and elegant. Yoink!

I switched to 3.5 soon after it came out and haven't ever regretted the move. Sure, there are a couple of things I house-ruled, but far less than I did with 3e. It took all of 3 seconds to wrap one's mind around the weapon sizing change and it's never been at all confusing. And maybe it's just my group, but none of them had a problem when I described the visual image of the paladin petitioning his deity to send his mount to him, and a tunnel of light opened up behind him to reveal a shining steed galloping down from the celestial realms to aid him. Pokemount, forsooth!
 

wilder_jw said:
Robin Hood didn't have spells. Aragorn didn't have spells. (Yes, Aragorn was a skilled herbalist and healer, but he wasn't a spellcaster.) Menion Leah didn't have spells. Are there any archetypal rangers that were spellcasters?

So, yeah, it's primarily a flavor issue. I think the Unearthed Arcana ranger is closer to perfect.

"But in the wild lands beyond Bree there were mysterious wanderers. The Bree-folk called them Rangers, and knew nothing of their origin. They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree and were believed to have strange powers of sight and hearing, and to understand the languages of beasts and birds. They roamed at will southwards, and eastwards even as far as the Misty Mountains; but they were now few and rarely seen. When they appeared they brought news from afar, and told strange forgotten tales which were eagerly listened to; but the Bree-folk did not make friends of them." FotR:178-9.

Speak With Animals, anyone?

"'This is an evil door,' said Halbarad, 'and my death lies beyond it. I will dare to pass it nonetheless; but no horse will enter it.'" RotK:58.

Prognostication/Precognition...

"Then Aragorn led the way, and such was the strength of his will in that hour that all the Dunedain and their horses followed him. And indeed the love that the horses of the Rangers bore for their riders was so great that they were willing to face even the terror of the Door, if their masters' hearts were steady as they walked beside them. But Arod, the horse of Rohan, refused the way, and he stood sweating and trembling in a fear that was grievious to see." RotK:58-9.

Calm Animals?

"Aragorn stirred in his sleep, turned over, and sat up.
'What is it?' he whispered, springing up and coming to Frodo. 'I felt something in my sleep.'" FotR:434.

"Nonetheless as the night wore on Aragorn grew uneasy, tossing often in his sleep and waking. In the small hours he got up and came to Frodo, whose turn it was to watch.
'Why are you waking?' asked Frodo. 'It is not your watch.'
'I do not know,' answered Aragorn; 'but a shadow and a threat has been growing in my sleep. It would be well to draw your sword.'" FotR:446.

"There is mischief about. I feel it." FotR:457.

Alarm?

"When he had looked on the faces of the sick and seen their hurts he sighed. 'Here I must put forth all such power and skill as is given to me,' he said. 'Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greatest power.'" RotK:145.

Not just skill, but power, too. Cure Light Wounds, anyone?

"Now Aragorn knelt beside Faramir, and held a hand upon his brow. And those that watched felt that some some great struggle was going on. For Aragorn's face grew grey with weariness; and ever and anon he called the name of Faramir, but each time more faintly to their hearing, as if Aragorn himself was removed from them, and walked afar in some dark vale, calling for one that was lost." RotK:147-8.

Healing is a struggle, requiring the use of some power.

"'I have, maybe, the power to heal her body, and to recall her from the dark valley. But to what she will awake: hope, or forgetfulness, or despair, I do not know. And if to despair, then she will die, unless other healing comes which I cannot bring. Alas! for her deeds have set her among the queens of great renown.'
Then Aragorn stooped and looked in her face, and it was indeed white as a lily, cold as frost, and hard as graven stone. But he bent and kissed her on the brow, and called her softly, saying:
'Eowyn Eomund's daughter, awake! For your enemy has passed away!'
She did not stir, but now she began again to breathe deeply, so that her breast rose and fell beneath the white linen of the sheets. Once more Aragorn bruised two leaves of athelas and cast them into steaming water; and he laved her brow with it, and her right arm lying cold and nerveless on the coverlet.
Then, whether Aragorn had indeed some forgotten power of Westernesse, or whether it was but his words of the Lady Eowyn that wrought on them, as the sweet influence of the herb stole about the chamber it seemed to those who stood by that a keen wind blew through the window, and it bore no scent, but was an air wholly fresh and clean and young, as if it had not before been breathed by any living thing and came new-made from snowy mountains high beneath a dome of stars, or from shores of silver far away washed by seas of foam.
'Awake, Eowyn, Lady of Rohan!' said Aragorn again, and he took her right hand in his and felt it warm with life returning. 'Awake! The shade is gone and all darkness is washed clean!' Then he laid her hand in Eomer's and stepped away. 'Call her!" he said, and he passed silently from the chamber." RotK:149-50.

Power, again, aided by a "Power Component", Athelas.

"At the doors of the Houses many were already gathered to see Aragorn, and they followed after him; and when at last he had supped, men came and prayed that he would heal their kinsmen or their friends whose lives were in peril through hurt or wound, or who lay under the Black Shadow. And Aragorn arose and went out, and he sent for the sons of Elrond, and together they laboured far into the night." RotK:153.

It wasn't just Aragorn, either... Elrond was the greatest healer, and Elladan & Elrohir, his two (Ranger) sons were, also.

"The wood was full of the rumour of him, dreadful tales even among beasts and birds." FotR:75.

Speak With Animals, again...

"He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue. Then setting it aside, he turned to Frodo and in a soft tone spoke words the others could not catch. From the pouch at his belt he drew out the long leaves of a plant." FotR:233.

This is certainly the most convincing... Aragorn isn't the type to waste either words OR time, yet he takes time out, while Frodo lies wounded & dying, to do SOMETHING with the hilt of the Morgul-blade! If it's not a divination spell, then what IS he doing?

"'I have no fitting gifts to give you at our parting,' said Faramir; 'but take these staves. They may be of service to those who walk or climb in the wild. The men of the White Mountains use them; though these have been cut down to your height and newly shod. They are made of the fair tree lebethron, beloved of the woodwrights of Gondor, and a virtue has been set upon them of finding and returning. May that virtue not wholly fail under the Shadow into which you go!" TT:319-20.

Faramir, too, displays talents, including item creation.

"If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro." RotK:278.

Mindreading (an ability shared by all The Wise, which is why only Aragorn & Legolas could long hold Galadriel's gaze).

So, you could do a spell-less Ranger, but look at all the special abilities you'd have to invent, to replace the spells...

Precognition, Mindreading, Speaking With Birds & Beasts, Animal Calming, Stealthyness, Swiftness, and Perception, in general. Then, you'd have to add a small host of special abilities that Rangers should have, which are covered by spells in 3.5:

A power of perception to awaken you to danger (Alarm).
Sending a message by Carrier-Pigeon, War-Dog, etc. (Animal Messenger).
Calming Animals, as the Rangers did upon the Paths of the Dead (Calm Animals).
Befriend wild beasts (Charm Animal).
Speaking With Birds and Beasts (Speak With Animals, Summon Nature's Ally I-IV).
Otherwise dealing with animals (Hold Animal, Reduce Animal, Animal Growth).
Sundry assorted healing abilities (Detect Poison, Delay Poison, Neutralize Poison, Cure Light Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, Remove Disease).
Finding Athelas, etc., at night, in the dark, in a ditch (Detect Animals or Plants).
Finding traps (Detect Snares and Pits, Search).
Resisting the weather (Endure Elements, Resist Energy).
Making traps (Entangle, Snare, Trip).
Stealth (Hide From Animals, Pass Without Trace, Nondetection).
Travelling (Jump, Freedom of Movement, Tree Stride).
Swiftness (Longstrider, Cat's Grace).
Knowledge/Lore (Read Magic, Owl's Wisdom, Speak With Plants, Commune With Nature).
Hardy/Enduring (Resist Energy, Barkskin, Bear's Endurance, Protection From Energy).
Nature Manipulation ((Greater) Magic Fang, Spike Growth, Wind Wall, Command Plants, Diminish Plants, Plant Growth, Repel Vermin, Tree Shape, Water Walk, Commune With Nature).
Perceptions (Alarm, Darkvision)...

Now, a new, spell-less, variant Ranger could be devised, with new rules for all of these skills, and/or new, special abilities... but what would happen, then?

"The Ranger can Speak With Animals at will, while the Druid can't?!"

"The Ranger can set traps, while the Rogue can't?!"

"Now the Ranger has the Barbarian's fast movement, PLUS Freedom of Action AND Tree Stride?! Unbalanced!"

Nope, it's better to just use the already-existing mechanic, and call'em "spells". No need to have a whole host of new tasks for Animal Handling/Animal Training, Craft (Trapmaking), Heal, etc., and explain why the Ranger can do it, but the Fighter can't. No need to invent a whole slew of new Extraordinary Abilities, and explain why the Ranger "isn't unbalanced".

Nope, it's easier just to give the Ranger a few spells. You want a Spell-less Ranger? Give him/her/it a Wisdom of 10 or less. Boom! You're done!

:p
 
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Steverooo said:
They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree and were believed to have strange powers of sight and hearing, and to understand the languages of beasts and birds.

Speak With Animals, anyone?

"Were believed to." Ignorant superstition, anyone?


"'This is an evil door,' said Halbarad, 'and my death lies beyond it. I will dare to pass it nonetheless; but no horse will enter it.'" RotK:58.

Prognostication/Precognition...

Paranoia/Poetic license...


"Then Aragorn led the way, and such was the strength of his will in that hour that all the Dunedain and their horses followed him.

Calm Animals?

Handle Animal skill?


"Aragorn stirred in his sleep,

"Nonetheless as the night wore on Aragorn grew uneasy

"There is mischief about. I feel it." FotR:457.

Alarm?

Fear effect? Night hag? Great Listen check? Paranoia? Knwoing they are out to get you?


"When he had looked on the faces of the sick and seen their hurts he sighed. 'Here I must put forth all such power and skill as is given to me,' he said.

Not just skill, but power, too. Cure Light Wounds, anyone?

The Heal skill, combined with synergy with Craft (herbalism) given by a generous DM?


"Now Aragorn knelt beside Faramir, and held a hand upon his brow. And those that watched felt that some some great struggle was going on. For Aragorn's face grew grey with weariness;

Healing is a struggle, requiring the use of some power.

Healing is a draining skill, especially when tending the very critically sick or wounded.


Once more Aragorn bruised two leaves of athelas and cast them into steaming water; and he laved her brow with it, and her right arm lying cold and nerveless on the coverlet.
Then, whether Aragorn had indeed some forgotten power of Westernesse, or whether it was but his words of the Lady Eowyn that wrought on them, as the sweet influence of the herb stole about the chamber it seemed to those

Power, again, aided by a "Power Component", Athelas.

No, the Heal skill again, with a bonus for knowing about a particularly medicinally-useful plant.

Look, if Aragorn's touch actually healed wounds, there were enough people around to see it, and yet in none of the passages you quote did any onlookers see such a thing. The most mystical thing they sensed was the smell of athelas. I've had a contact high, too.


And Aragorn arose and went out, and he sent for the sons of Elrond, and together they laboured far into the night." RotK:153.

It wasn't just Aragorn, either... Elrond was the greatest healer, and Elladan & Elrohir, his two (Ranger) sons were, also.

Why in the world did they "labor" far into the night? Which requires long hours and hard work: the Heal skill used on many people, or laying on of hands?


"The wood was full of the rumour of him, dreadful tales even among beasts and birds." FotR:75.

Speak With Animals, again...

Who, exactly, is speaking with animals here?


"He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue.

This is certainly the most convincing... Aragorn isn't the type to waste either words OR time, yet he takes time out, while Frodo lies wounded & dying, to do SOMETHING with the hilt of the Morgul-blade! If it's not a divination spell, then what IS he doing?

Praying? Meditating? Examining the blade? Thinking, "Oh, crap, we're in trouble now, I wish Gandalf were here"?


"'I have no fitting gifts to give you at our parting,' said Faramir; 'but take these staves. a virtue has been set upon them of finding and returning. May that virtue not wholly fail under the Shadow into which you go!" TT:319-20.

Faramir, too, displays talents, including item creation.

Yeah, about as much talent for item creation as the guy who sold me my Lucky Buddha down in Chinatown. He laid a virtue on it for 'good fortune,' and I still haven't won the lottery. (Of course, I don't play the lottery ... )

Even if the staffs are actually magical, Faramir didn't say he enchanted them. Seems like he was pretty careful to use the passive voice, in fact.


"If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro." RotK:278.

Mindreading (an ability shared by all The Wise, which is why only Aragorn & Legolas could long hold Galadriel's gaze).

Wait, are you sure they didn't actually turn to stone? Because up until now you've been putting a lot of stock into the perceptions and "beliefs" of onlookers.

I don't specifically remember this scene, truthfully. Who's involved?


So, you could do a spell-less Ranger, but look at all the special abilities you'd have to invent, to replace the spells...

A power of perception to awaken you to danger (Alarm).

Or you could give the ranger Listen and Spot skills, and lots of skill points, and access to the Alertness feat.


Sending a message by Carrier-Pigeon, War-Dog, etc. (Animal Messenger).

Or you could give the ranger the Handle Animal skill, and lots of skill points, and have actual trained carrier pigeons and hounds to use the skill on.


Calming Animals, as the Rangers did upon the Paths of the Dead (Calm Animals).

Or you could give the ranger the Handle Animal skill, and lots of skill points.


Befriend wild beasts (Charm Animal).

Or you could give the ranger an ability that allows the befriending of wild beasts, and call it something wacky, like, I dunno, "Wild Empathy."


Speaking With Birds and Beasts (Speak With Animals, Summon Nature's Ally I-IV).

"I can call spirits from the vasty deep!" / "Why so can I, and so can any man / "But will they come when you do call for them?"

You're actually claiming Aragorn summoned creatures?


Otherwise dealing with animals (Hold Animal, Reduce Animal, Animal Growth).

Wild Empathy, Handle Animal ... waitasec, again ... are you claiming that Aragorn casts giant growth somewhere? 'Cause all of the above passages are stretches, but that'd be a whopper.


Sundry assorted healing abilities (Detect Poison, Delay Poison, Neutralize Poison, Cure Light Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, Remove Disease).

Or you could give the ranger the Heal and Craft (herbalism) skills. (If you're a reasonable DM, you could even allow synergy between the two.)


Finding Athelas, etc., at night, in the dark, in a ditch (Detect Animals or Plants).

Or you could give the ranger the Spot skill and a night with a moon. (And if you're a nice DM -- or an author with power of life and death -- you could even lower the DC for the search substantially.)


Finding traps (Detect Snares and Pits, Search).

Yeah, the Search skill would do it.


Resisting the weather (Endure Elements, Resist Energy).

Or you could give the ranger the Survival skill and the Endurance feat.


Making traps (Entangle, Snare, Trip).

Or you could give the ranger the Craft (trapmaking) skill.


Stealth (Hide From Animals, Pass Without Trace, Nondetection).

Or you could give the ranger the Hide and Move Silently skills.


Travelling (Jump, Freedom of Movement, Tree Stride).
Swiftness (Longstrider, Cat's Grace).

Or you could give the ranger Woodland Stride. (And maybe even an extra 10' of movement (Unearthed Arcana).)


Knowledge/Lore (Read Magic, Owl's Wisdom, Speak With Plants, ).

Or you could give the ranger the Knowledge (nature), Craft (herbalism), and Heal skills, and an experienced and long-lived ranger might even have cross-class skills in Knowledge (history).


Hardy/Enduring (Resist Energy, Barkskin, Bear's Endurance, Protection From Energy).

Endurance feat. (You're gettin' seriously repetitive now.)

Nature Manipulation ((Greater) Magic Fang, Spike Growth, Wind Wall, Command Plants, Diminish Plants, Plant Growth, Repel Vermin, Tree Shape, Water Walk, Commune With Nature).

You have got to be kidding me. Water walk? Is Strider yer own personal Jesus?


Perceptions (Alarm, Darkvision)...

Spot, Listen, Alertness...


Now, a new, spell-less, variant Ranger could be devised, with new rules for all of these skills, and/or new, special abilities... but what would happen, then?

Not "could be." "Has been." And, oddly, the sky didn't fall.
 


Psion said:
1) Pokemounts
2) Square bases (I thought I was alone on this, but it's nice to see at last someone else agrees.)
3) Concealment
4) School rearrangements and specialist wizards
5) Weapon sizes (something needed done, not that...)
6) Some feat changes (power attack, deflect arrows, spell focus/ISF)
7) (Not a change, just a "failed to fix it" thing) why not bonus feats instead of combat styles? Combat styles/virtual feats are clunky.


ditto Psion's list.
 

Testament said:
That is, by far, the best justification ANYONE has ever given me. Congratulations Jeff, you just changed my mind on that whole manner.

I also hate the Assassin having spells, and your views on the Ranger are valid. I don't entirely agree with you (can't say why though :\ ), nor do I disagree.

FreeTheSlaves, I'm not talking about the abomination that is the 3.0 Ranger (AKA the one level class), I'm talking about the 3.5 ranger, with 6+Int skill points and a heck of a lot less front loading. The animal companion now scales (hallelujah!), and the favoured enemy bonuses can be kicked up when you pick up a new one. If you pick up Dragons as your third, for instance, you can immediately kick it to +4. Take a look at a 3.5 PHB, or the SRD.

If anyone is looking for a better spell-less ranger, take a look at Iron Kingdoms 3.5. You can actually build Aragorn with it. Huzzah!

Mostly I was annoyed at a few spell changes. Some should have been hit with the nerf stick (Mord's Disjunction), some got powered up (Shapechange, Righteous Might) and a few are too weak (Blight).

I do not like the new Power Attack, either.

Now Aragorn knelt beside Faramir, and held a hand upon his brow.

Stop right there. Aragorn is not the only ranger in the Tolkien universe. He's the king. Faramir is not the king. No other ranger ever demonstrated these abilities - and I'm counting Beren here (he was a lycanthrope hunter with loads of wilderness skills).
 
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GlassJaw said:
I can't believe this discussion is still ongoing. It's just the same over and over again.


give it another 12 years or so.

it has only been a year. that is hardly enough time to talk a topic out.
 

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