Steel_Wind
Legend
S'mon said:
They understood it just fine. They were making extravagant claims and being bullies - as a matter of policy.
What did TSR do wrong?
- Thread starter Thurbane
- Start date
They understood it just fine. They were making extravagant claims and being bullies - as a matter of policy.
Steel_Wind said:
But the policy (according to them) was based on the idea that non-enforcement of IPR can lead to unenforceability; which is true when relating to commercial use of TMs as TMs - if WoTC let other publishers use "D&D" to mean "RPGs", then D&D could lose TM protection. TSR's lawyers then extended this threefold - to descriptive use of D&D to refer to the D&D game, to non-commercial use in eg fan-published articles, and to (allegedly) copyright-protected works.
They may have been genuinely worried that fan-created modules & other materials on the Internet threatened their business, but their stated reason, at least to me, was all about potential loss of TM protection.
Steel_Wind
Legend
Glyfair said:
I'll give you that - but the OP was asking about the animosity and what they did and how it started.
And even now - the hate for Lorraine Williams has its origins there.
Certainly the role of "Lorraine Williams, starring as Baba Yaga, the Wicked Witch of the MidWest" is now her place in gaming history. That public image is very much colored by "online fans" at the time. That perception of that fairly small online segment of fans was inherited over the years and has grown and colored the perceptions of more fans as they came online over the subsequent years.
Add that to her legal machinations with Gary Gygax and the litigation over Dangerous Dimensions and GDW and her place in earning the animosity of fans in the 90s is complete.
Steel_Wind
Legend
S'mon said:
You have stated their stated fears correctly. It's mostly all crap. It was about intimidation, extreme legal positions, and the recognition that copyright over rules compatablity is a very nebulous and fragile thing.
The OGL put that to bed, happily.
Tzeentch
First Post
As bad as WotC can be, they don't hold a CANDLE to T$R during the latter 90's when it came to sheer *viciousness* in dealing with fans (and I do not use that term lightly). It's hard to even describe it now since the whole situation was so insane that it's almost mythical. And since the net community then was considerably smaller the concentration of cease-and-desists and hateful netrep responses certainly seemed more personal.Steel_Wind said:
Steel_Wind said:
Yes, that's why I nod with TSR bashing. 2nd edition's mom-friendly redo (my half-orc assassin became an illegal race and illegal class), 2nd edition crunch books, Gygax getting the boot, Greyhawk getting the From the Asses treatment, and a series of lame Greyhawk modules (Puppets, no more need to be said to Greyhawk fanatics) in the early 1990s ending up coinciding with my stopping playing from 1990-1996, when I started up my own 1st edition Greyhawk campaign with all home-made or used Gygax-era materials.
Philotomy Jurament
First Post
What soured me on TSR was the products (I'm talking about later-day TSR). I'd buy something and be disappointed. I'd get my hopes up and buy a different one...and be disappointed. Finally, I just stopped buying.
The same pattern has happened for me with WotC stuff, but much more quickly. That isn't because WotC has crappy products (I don't think they do, overall), but because I have more choice, these days (thanks to the OGL), and I have a clearer understanding of what I like and want from my RPG products. WotC products don't really match my tastes very well, so I buy from other companies where they're making products that do.
The same pattern has happened for me with WotC stuff, but much more quickly. That isn't because WotC has crappy products (I don't think they do, overall), but because I have more choice, these days (thanks to the OGL), and I have a clearer understanding of what I like and want from my RPG products. WotC products don't really match my tastes very well, so I buy from other companies where they're making products that do.
Last edited:
Silver Moon
Adventurer
Ah yes, I recall that era quite well. Back in 1997-1998 my wife and I were the RPGA Coordinators for two good-sized gaming conventions here in New England. We had held that role for one of those conventions for about five years at that point and TSR's support of RPGA changed drastically towards the end.
Earlier on there had been quite a bit of personal contact, support for conventions getting modules written and published for RPGA, enthusiastic TSR staffers coming to the coventions to promote the company's newest products and a nice assortment of product sent to use as prizes.
Towards the end it was the exact opposite - it was impossible to get a hold of anybody, most of our writers were never paid for their submissions during the final year (although their modules were put on the RPGA list for other conventions to buy), TSR continued to fly staff to conventions but the only product they brought was Dragon Dice which they would play with personal friends and only let convention attendees watch without interruption, and the products sent as prizes would be 15-20 copies each of three different two-year-products that never sold designed for a specific setting.
I know that from a convention support standpoint WotC stepping in was greatly welcomed.
Earlier on there had been quite a bit of personal contact, support for conventions getting modules written and published for RPGA, enthusiastic TSR staffers coming to the coventions to promote the company's newest products and a nice assortment of product sent to use as prizes.
Towards the end it was the exact opposite - it was impossible to get a hold of anybody, most of our writers were never paid for their submissions during the final year (although their modules were put on the RPGA list for other conventions to buy), TSR continued to fly staff to conventions but the only product they brought was Dragon Dice which they would play with personal friends and only let convention attendees watch without interruption, and the products sent as prizes would be 15-20 copies each of three different two-year-products that never sold designed for a specific setting.
I know that from a convention support standpoint WotC stepping in was greatly welcomed.
thedungeondelver
Adventurer
TSR's failures as a company began, for me, with the ouster of Gary Gygax. Kevin and Brian Blume tried to wreck TSR and when that didn't work they got their legbreaker Lorraine Williams in to do it and she handily succeeded.
I mean, the woman literally said "gamers are beneath me".
How much more terrible a CEO can you ask for from a gaming company?
wingsandsword
Legend
I think why people have been drawing comparisons about T
As for the many things they did to draw ire, I think they've been documented well so far in this thread: Making the game politically correct by eliminating assassins, half-orcs, and renaming demons, devils and hell (among many other changes). A very hard-line policy about intellectual property that alienated fans. A notable decline in the quality of the product line. Very few products being made for generic setting-free D&D. I know some people were seriously upset at the way their favorite settings (Dragonlance and Planescape) were handled in storyline/metaplot. The books had a tendency to assume you had every other book ever published and would require or refer you to some old out-of-print book to be able to use much of what was in the book you just bought. They turned out lots of lackluster non-D&D products that seemed to take their attention away from D&D (SAGA and Dragon Dice come to mind).
The company was run by non-gamers who hated gamers, and it showed.
Now, WotC is nowhere near what old TSR was in terms of hostility towards fans, I think the comparison tends towards hyperbole. In the "bad old days" of "T$R" a company acting like WotC is today would have been a knight in shining armor by comparison, but in giving Dungeon and Dragon Magazines the axe, some fans are feeling an echo of the "we don't care about our fans" attitude.
As for the many things they did to draw ire, I think they've been documented well so far in this thread: Making the game politically correct by eliminating assassins, half-orcs, and renaming demons, devils and hell (among many other changes). A very hard-line policy about intellectual property that alienated fans. A notable decline in the quality of the product line. Very few products being made for generic setting-free D&D. I know some people were seriously upset at the way their favorite settings (Dragonlance and Planescape) were handled in storyline/metaplot. The books had a tendency to assume you had every other book ever published and would require or refer you to some old out-of-print book to be able to use much of what was in the book you just bought. They turned out lots of lackluster non-D&D products that seemed to take their attention away from D&D (SAGA and Dragon Dice come to mind).
The company was run by non-gamers who hated gamers, and it showed.
Now, WotC is nowhere near what old TSR was in terms of hostility towards fans, I think the comparison tends towards hyperbole. In the "bad old days" of "T$R" a company acting like WotC is today would have been a knight in shining armor by comparison, but in giving Dungeon and Dragon Magazines the axe, some fans are feeling an echo of the "we don't care about our fans" attitude.
Similar Threads
- Locked
