What did Wizards learn from Essentials?

[Tony Vargas]

PIf I were to list the lessons learned in just one aspect of D&D (there are other aspects, and other lessons) it would be as follows:

2e learned that if you wanted each player to run a single character over an extended campaign, "linear warriors, quadratic wizards" was a problem.

Really, 1e more than adequately taught that lesson, it was just ignored with 2e...

Pre-Essentials 4e learned that putting warriors and wizards on the same AEDU power structure balanced them very well

Yep.

but sacrificed a certain amount of distinctiveness which was important to some players.

Or that those who /liked/ playing the quadratic wizard along side a linear fighter would rather complain about 'distinctiveness' than demand their broken wizard back (though some did that, too).

Essentials learned that it was possible to achieve sufficient balance between warriors and wizards while making the classes more distinctive by having somewhat less linear warriors and significantly less quadratic wizards.

Essentials just did a 180 to please the hold-outs who wanted choiceless, medicore fighters next to whome their casters would shine. It didn't go far enough in that backwards direction to please them, though. So the lesson learned from Essentials was 'no compromise.' Whatever the rhetoric of 5e, it's purpose is to bring back the holdouts who rejected 4e, and they're not willing to accept a compromise - like Essentials - that retains any trace of 4e-ness.

 

[Remathilis]

I actually agree with you. But I want the fluff separated on the page. I want ALL the mechanical information in the block, and then have the fluff. When i looked at the 3rd edition fireball (which uses almost the exact same text you quoted) it included mechanical rules buried within the fluff. I may have exaggerated my position in some of my posts above, but what I really want is clear and easy to read rules. And I think part of that is separating the fluff from the crunch on the page or pages.

It was, kinda...

FIREBALL
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.

You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.

Material Component
A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur.

Red: Crunch.
Blue: Fluff.

 

[Tony Vargas]

"Ranged touch attack" is fluff?

 

[Remathilis]

"Ranged touch attack" is fluff?

One rule amongst a bunch of mostly descriptionary text. Oh noes! What are we going to do?

Where is my rollseye simile?

 

[Uller]

I'm a fairly recent convert to 4e and started with Essentials, then moved to the core rulebooks. The thing that struck me was that the PHB did not feel like the reference book that it was in previous editions. I bought it expecting an expanded list of spells, schools, domains, etc to build upon the options available to my essentials based characters.

Needless to say, I was a bit disappointed.

Look at the 1e PHB...127 pages and 200+ spells for magic-users alone...

So hopefully they do something like that...a set of basic/essentials books to get players and DMs started, a set of "core" reference books that allow players and DMs to cover all the bases for most campaigns and then a serios of supplements for specific classes and themes to expand the game.

Still...overall I generally like 4e and some of the concepts it introduces...I like healing surges. I like at-will and encounter powers. I like that ever PC almost always has something useful to do and I like that 1st level characters aren't ridiculously fragile.

 

[Charleois]

It was, kinda...

Originally Posted by SRD
FIREBALL
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.

You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.

Material Component
A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur.

Red: Crunch.
Blue: Fluff.

I re-coloured the text, but still had trouble. The text uses long sentences to describe rules/effects.

 

[Dausuul]

In my view, the distinction between "fluff" and "crunch" is silly. Notice how the posters above can't agree on which parts of 3E fireball are the fluff. The way I see it, the entire description is rules text; some of the rules are laid out in precise detail, others are looser and more colloquial, but the glowing bead and the low roar are every bit as much rules text as "1d6 per caster level." That's why they get all mixed together in spell descriptions from older editions--because they're all part of the same thing, which is the description of the spell effect. The "statblock" portion of the spell is merely providing certain data which are common across most/all spells.

4E's decision to split up "fluff" and "crunch," and put the former in italics and away from the main block of the power--doing everything they could to signal ignore this stuff, it doesn't matter--is what I object to. I don't mind having spells and powers be short and to the point. In fact, I approve of it; the 3E spell description is almost comically overwritten. (I'm tempted to insert something about how the glowing bead is neither running nor tarrying as it flies to its destination.)

Likewise, I don't think we need class descriptions to run on for pages and pages. I do, however, want to erase the "fluff-crunch" divide as much as possible. Putting all the "fluff" in a block at the front does not help with this.

 

[Incenjucar]

4E's separation of fluff and crunch allow for easier refluffing. It's been pretty vital to the characters and monsters I run, since I modify just about everything but usually leave the rules untouched.

That said, pre-4E powers were certainly more complicated.

Fireball Wizard/Sorcerer Attack 5
A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar, dealing fire damage to creatures and objects within the area. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
Daily * Arcane, Implement, Evocation, Fire
Standard Action Area burst 4 within 80+8/level squares
Target: All creatures and objects in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Requirements: You must be able to speak and gesture, and must have a tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur.
Hit: 5d6 fire damage
Level 6: 6d6 fire damage
Level 7: 7d6 fire damage
Level 8: 8d6 fire damage
Level 9: 9d6 fire damage
Level 10: 10d6 fire damage
Miss: Half damage
Special: If a barrier interrupts line of effect when you use this power, the center of the burst is in that square.
If you have line of effect, but only through a narrow passage such as a keyhole, make an Intelligence check against DC 15. On a failure, that square instead acts as a barrier.
Barriers destroyed by the burst do not block line of effect from the origin square of the burst.

Warrior Melee Full Attack
You hit things a whole bunch.

Warrior Melee Full Attack Full Attack
You steady yourself, then lash out with a flurry of deadly blows.
At-Will * Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Requirement: You must not have moved during this turn, except to shift up to one square.
Hit: 1[W]+Strength modifier damage
Level 6: Make a second attack against the same or a different target. This attack has a -5 penalty to hit.
Level 11: Make a third attack against the same or a different target. This attack has a -10 penalty to hit.
Level 16: Make a fourth attack against the same or a different target. This attack has a -15 penalty to hit.
Special: After using this power, you are unable to use actions to move, except to shift up to one square, until the end of your turn. If you have already shifted this turn, you cannot shift again until the end of your turn.

 

[Tony Vargas]

One rule amongst a bunch of mostly descriptionary text. Oh noes! What are we going to do?

Where is my rollseye simile?

That's one example. The text about continuing past a barrier if that barrier is destroyed is another. Chareolis gave you some more.

Really, the /whole/ area you blued could, depending upon interpretation, be rules of one sort or another. I just pointed out the clearest example, one that used game jargon.

For that matter, a bit of the red area could be fluff.

Because 3e made no distinction between fluff and crunch, the whole text description of the spell is potentially either or both. It's open to interpretation. For instance, 'low roar.' Is the fact that it's 'low' meant indicate that it's less likely to be heard from a distance, or does 'roar' mean it's loud and 'low' merely pitch?

If it were done with separate fluff and crunch, the crunch might give a DC (probably quite low) to hear the detonation, with distance and intervening barriers making it possible to miss it, and the player would be free to have a fireball that detonated with something other than a roar (just in case it mattered to him), or, indeed, didn't detonate at all, imploding or swirling about, for instance.

 

[Sadras]

...But I want the fluff separated on the page. I want ALL the mechanical information in the block, and then have the fluff....... what I really want is clear and easy to read rules. And I think part of that is separating the fluff from the crunch on the page or pages.

Fair enough. I think that was a positive design element in 4E which will probably survive into 5E.