jgbrowning
Hero
Skill synergies.
What did you never like in 3e?
- Thread starter Andor
- Start date
Treebore
First Post
The only thing that really bugged me was Attacks of Opportunities. If I ever run 3E again AoO will be gone.
After that everything feels pretty minor to me, other than the "every rule must be followed precisely at all times, even when it will disrupt the game for 10 minutes while we look up the rule" attitude the game had.
I have to say Grapple did cause a lot of head aches too. Then again it always has, since 1E anyways. I don't remember if OD&D had Grapple, I think it does. ITs always been worth just ignoring/avoiding.
Still, all my problems with 3e have to do with rules obsession.
After that everything feels pretty minor to me, other than the "every rule must be followed precisely at all times, even when it will disrupt the game for 10 minutes while we look up the rule" attitude the game had.
I have to say Grapple did cause a lot of head aches too. Then again it always has, since 1E anyways. I don't remember if OD&D had Grapple, I think it does. ITs always been worth just ignoring/avoiding.
Still, all my problems with 3e have to do with rules obsession.
Oni
First Post
Heh, but I must be one of the only gamers in the world who actually likes XP for magic item creation. A lot.
It made sense to me, but the one thing that bothered me about was if the fighter wanted a new sword, the wizard had to pay for it. I think there should have been a way to have other people pony up the xp if they wanted something from the wizard who had already done them the huge service of say taking the craft arms and armour feat instead of something really useful for himself.
I did find the break down of the crafting feats to be kind of weird. Like craft wonderous item was so diverse it was pretty helpful versus say Craft Rod. Did anyone actually use that? Breaking item creation into tiers would have made more sense. Craft minor magic item, Craft magic item, Craft major magic item.
Fifth Element
Legend
I'd say the only thing I've never liked are the grappling rules. Just too complex for what they're trying to accomplish.
Any other quibbles I have with the game I've gone back and forth on a lot over the years.
So overall, I'd have to say 3E is awesome. And so is 3.5.
Any other quibbles I have with the game I've gone back and forth on a lot over the years.
So overall, I'd have to say 3E is awesome. And so is 3.5.
Aus_Snow
First Post
Funny you should say that - I've allowed for collaborative efforts for these purposes, in my house rules.
Though maybe not quite as open as you might have in mind there. . . I'll have to think about that one. . .So naturally, I think it's a splendid idea.
Hm, now I think about the other part of your post -
. . . Arcana Evolved has a better version (than does 3e), IMO. Though yours has merit too. It goes something like: Charged, Constant, Spell-Completion, Single-Use. Er, and Magical Arms & Armour. I think that's about it.
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What we did was bring back a variation of the permanency spell from 1e. basically a wizard can create any magic item les than 5000 gp market value without permanency. but if he makes one over 5000 gp market value, (not including wands, potions, or scrolls) he must use permanency to make it. using permanency spell causes a permanent loss of 1 con point. and since we don't allow ability score increasing magic items or spells in our game, that's a significant loss. it made powerful magic special, rather than something you could buy from the corner store.
These are off the top of my head and some of these are carryovers from previous editions. Many are minor and are solved with some houserules, but I still dislike them.
1. Too many absolutes
- Automatic class or racial immunities (excluding things like not needing to breath or eat for being a construct).
- low level spells that are automatically successful and, therefore, step on other classes
- some skills preventing characters from attempting certain actions if untrained. In some cases, it is warranted (you can't speak a language that you don't know), but in other cases the difficulty should be increased due to lack of training rather than outright preventing an attempt.
2. The default speed of leveling
3. Using XP Costs to balance magic item creation
4. Using XP Costs to balance casting certain spells
5. Level Drain
6. High level play (above 12th level)
7. Christmas Tree Syndrome
8. Multiclassing
- automatically learning all armor and weapons provided by the new class. reduces the importance of choosing a martial class at first level and provides a way to avoid using acquring new armor and weapons via feats.
- granting good saves: allows characters to avoid taking the save feats.
- stacking good save bonuses. Inflates save bonuses
9. Prestige Classes: In most cases, I think they that they would have been done better by using customizing a character (from the PHB)/UA style class variants or 3.0 Apprentice level multiclassing. (Thankfully, PrCs were optional)
10. Too few skill points for several classes
11. Lack of Action Point/Hero Point mechanic
12. Non biological aspects as part of the racial write-up. What if you want a dwarf or elf that grew up among humans or a human that grew up among dwarves or elves.
13. Lack of a Warrior Mage class
14. Barbarian by default as a Wilderness Rager
15. Bard as a jack of all trades
16. Clerics not required to have a deity and boosted in power to encourage people to play
17. Monk: After 5th level, I am not a fan of the class abilities. I would have preferred more customization by choice similar to a fighter
18. Turn Undead, Rage, and Sneak Attack requring one to be a member of a particular class to acquire.
19. The Domain system: I prefer 2e spheres
20. Specialist Wizards: Better treatments were introduced in later 2e supplements (Unearthed Arcana got it right, imo)
21. Equipment
- Missing many types of armor and weapons from previous editions
- Sunrods, Tanglefoot bags, etc as part of core
- Spiked Chains, etc as part of core
22. Turning Mechanics
23. Combat
- No defense bonus outside of fighting defensively or using combat expertise
- Negative Hit points
- Crit Rules: It was ok and, imo, better than 4e. However, I prefer the method from 2e: Combat and Tactics where confirmation was built into the roll
24. Ability drain: should have just added penalties rather than altering the score itself
25. The majority of WOTC supplements
1. Too many absolutes
- Automatic class or racial immunities (excluding things like not needing to breath or eat for being a construct).
- low level spells that are automatically successful and, therefore, step on other classes
- some skills preventing characters from attempting certain actions if untrained. In some cases, it is warranted (you can't speak a language that you don't know), but in other cases the difficulty should be increased due to lack of training rather than outright preventing an attempt.
2. The default speed of leveling
3. Using XP Costs to balance magic item creation
4. Using XP Costs to balance casting certain spells
5. Level Drain
6. High level play (above 12th level)
7. Christmas Tree Syndrome
8. Multiclassing
- automatically learning all armor and weapons provided by the new class. reduces the importance of choosing a martial class at first level and provides a way to avoid using acquring new armor and weapons via feats.
- granting good saves: allows characters to avoid taking the save feats.
- stacking good save bonuses. Inflates save bonuses
9. Prestige Classes: In most cases, I think they that they would have been done better by using customizing a character (from the PHB)/UA style class variants or 3.0 Apprentice level multiclassing. (Thankfully, PrCs were optional)
10. Too few skill points for several classes
11. Lack of Action Point/Hero Point mechanic
12. Non biological aspects as part of the racial write-up. What if you want a dwarf or elf that grew up among humans or a human that grew up among dwarves or elves.
13. Lack of a Warrior Mage class
14. Barbarian by default as a Wilderness Rager
15. Bard as a jack of all trades
16. Clerics not required to have a deity and boosted in power to encourage people to play
17. Monk: After 5th level, I am not a fan of the class abilities. I would have preferred more customization by choice similar to a fighter
18. Turn Undead, Rage, and Sneak Attack requring one to be a member of a particular class to acquire.
19. The Domain system: I prefer 2e spheres
20. Specialist Wizards: Better treatments were introduced in later 2e supplements (Unearthed Arcana got it right, imo)
21. Equipment
- Missing many types of armor and weapons from previous editions
- Sunrods, Tanglefoot bags, etc as part of core
- Spiked Chains, etc as part of core
22. Turning Mechanics
23. Combat
- No defense bonus outside of fighting defensively or using combat expertise
- Negative Hit points
- Crit Rules: It was ok and, imo, better than 4e. However, I prefer the method from 2e: Combat and Tactics where confirmation was built into the roll
24. Ability drain: should have just added penalties rather than altering the score itself
25. The majority of WOTC supplements
Psion
Adventurer
Indeed!
For me:
1) Iterative attacks
2) Level Adjustment. Never quite felt right.
3) The 3.5 era "base class mill".
4) Too few skill points for some classes.
5) The cleric as a "warpriest" class; not enough flavor or variety.
Aus_Snow
First Post
Just cherry-picking some there. And to all of those - oh yeah. Good call, every one of them.
Fifth Element
Legend
I stand corrected. I never liked level drain either. But that's not just a 3E thing, I've never liked it in any edition.
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