What do uncontrolled mindless undead do?

The_Fan said:
Undead are a notable exception to the rule that mindless creatures do not have an alignment.
Mindless undead in 3.5 were only given an alignment because their not having an alignment screwed up some stuff (like detect evil). Note that in every edition prior to 3.5 mindless undead were "Neutral," just like animals.

While I like your creativity, and that of other posters, there's nothing in the rules to suggest that skeletons and zombies without orders do anything at all. In fact, from Monster Manual p. 225: "A skeleton does only what it is ordered to do. It can draw no conclusions of its own and takes no intiative." That's pretty straightforward, and while the Zombie text doesn't have similar language, it can be reasonably inferred.


Jeff

P.S. The proper way to fix the alignment issue with undead, mindless or not, would have been to give them the [Evil] subtype, similar to that of fiends and such.
 

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Jeff Wilder said:
n fact, from Monster Manual p. 225: "A skeleton does only what it is ordered to do. It can draw no conclusions of its own and takes no intiative." That's pretty straightforward, and while the Zombie text doesn't have similar language, it can be reasonably inferred.

Under the rules, you are completely correct. I derive my conclusions based off two things. First, that my way is more interesting. Second, that almost every other DM in the history of the game (going back to Gygax) has been so tempted by the flavor of zombies and skeletons as foes, that they couldn't pass up using them as generic low level undead foes and rules be darned. The evil high priest isn't high enough level to animate dead, much less control all the undead in the temple? The general responce by DM's to that seems to be "So what? Don't let rule technicalities get in the way of the fun!" The way I describe the situation comes much closer to explaining the behavior of skeletons and zombies in published modules and I would expect most DM's actual campaigns.

I mean technically if we take the above assertion literally, then uncontrolled mindless undead should just set there and let themselves be hacked to peices, since they are now berift of any orders and won't roll initiative even to defend themselves?

Besides which, "does only what it is ordered to do" is pretty vague considering the creature is 'mindless'. Just how complex of a set of instructions can it understand?
 




Jack Simth said:
Of course, such an oil would cost .... 50*3*5=750 gp to purchase, and how many farmers can afford that? Why, the horse that they have pulling thier plow costs less (200 gp for a heavy horse, by SRD).
10 controlled skeletons would be worth way more than four horses. The oil would be a great deal. (Don't forget that draft horses have skeletons, too ... )

It's really an extremely interesting idea. SSS explored it a little bit in Hollowfaust, and I fleshed the idea out (heh, heh) quite a bit for my Church of Wee Jas, but it'd be interesting to see it on a societal scale.
 

I always ran it that lesser (S&Z) could be given a simple order, and then left to do it "uncontrolled". This is kind of like a tax loophole for necromancers, but it lets one have a lot of temple guards while preventing too much necromancer abuse. I suppose a necromancer who was "in the mood" could create zombies and send them away to go on a mindless rampage. Having skeletons and zombies just do that on their own would make a cool house rule, but it would not work at all in my Hollowfaust-based campaign. Of course the fact that the surounding area is chock full of ghouls means there is no shortage of flesh-eating undead.
 

Jeff Wilder said:
Mindless undead in 3.5 were only given an alignment because their not having an alignment screwed up some stuff (like detect evil). Note that in every edition prior to 3.5 mindless undead were "Neutral," just like animals.

Detect evil didn't detect them as evil, because they weren't. I don't see how that is screwed up.


glass.
 

glass said:
Detect evil didn't detect them as evil, because they weren't. I don't see how that is screwed up.
Heh. This is an argument I won't be getting into again )on either side). Suffice it to say that many, many people (including the Sage and other WotC designers) disagree with you.
 

Jeff Wilder said:
10 controlled skeletons would be worth way more than four horses. The oil would be a great deal. (Don't forget that draft horses have skeletons, too ... )

It's really an extremely interesting idea. SSS explored it a little bit in Hollowfaust, and I fleshed the idea out (heh, heh) quite a bit for my Church of Wee Jas, but it'd be interesting to see it on a societal scale.
I actually forgot to add the material components cost - for an oil capable of animating 10 HD of undead by that spell, there is an extra cost of 250 gp for materials (gem worth 25 gp for each HD of undead created... with a caveat that they are single gems for the critter animated, reading straight from the spell. Would an oil be subject to that particular caveat?) which brings the price of the oil up to an even 1,000 gp for the "full" caster-level 5 version, or 1,250 for a version that can take full advantage of a Desecrated area and give you 20 HD of undead all at once - the max you can control by the use of the oil anyway - it's a bulk rate discount.

Let's see... a casting of Desecrate from a minimal priest capable of casting it costs... 10*Caster Level*Spell Level + Materials = 10*3*2+25+25=110 gp - so the full 20 HD of undead, under your countrol, could be purchased for 1,360 gp (not counting bodies, of course); and if you go in with friends, you only need one casting of Desecrate, save a few GP that way))

Edit: Also, what are the bodies worth? 1/2 standard? A heavy horse defaults to 200 gp, and has 3 HD; a skeleton made from a heavy horse will also have 3 HD. A full run (20 HD oil, Desecrate) on Heavy Horses can manage six of them (18 HD, total; perhaps add a donkey (8 gp base cost - negligable - and 2 HD) to round it out to 20 HD). At half-standard for the bodies, that's an extra 604 gp on top, for a total of 1,964 gp for six heavy horse skeletons and one donkey skeleton. Although, as the difference will only be two points of Str, you may well want to go with light horses (at 75 gp base each - 225 gp for 6 bodies, using the 1/2 figure, plus a donkey again at 8 gp base) - for a total of 1,589 gp.

With a non-desecration build, you get 10 HD - that's three horses and a gaurd dog; 1,000 gp for the oil, 112.5 gp for the horse corpses, 12.5 gp for a gaurd dog corpse; 1,125 gp total.

Granted, that will still likely be more valuable than the 8-10 heavy horses (max desecration route; 5-6 heavy horses for non-desecrate route) you could otherwise buy with (about) the same amount of cash in most circumstances, but how many farmers will be able to put out that much GP all at once to take advantage of it? Also, what about if all that cash was instead spent on light horses? Those are only 75 gp each; 2000 gp buys you 26 of them (with 50 gp left over for other stuff), 1,000 gp 13 (with 25 left over for other stuff). Which is more valuable; 13 light horses or three animated horse skeletons?

There's also a maintenence issue; unless everybody is at least a level-1 Evil Cleric, the farmer will have to pay to fix every little injury on his skeleton horse - 10gp for an Inflict Light Wounds that only heals 1d8+1 damage, as well as a trip to town with the injured undead to see the cleric (a wasted day; no work can be done). A horse, on the other hand, can be left in the barn overnight, fed and watered, to recover 3 HP naturally. All day, and it's 6 HP (if I'm remembering natural healing right - 1 hp per HD for normal rest, 2 HD per hit die for complete rest).

Then again, live horses require feed at 5 cp per animal per day (although a cheapskate can have them graze, feed is better - although not necessarily defined on how)
 
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