what do you call the son of a duke?

[Agback]

I got prince for son of a king, baronet for son of a baron, what about the son of a duke?

Whoa there!

My uncle was a baron (life peerage). That made his eldest son "The honourable Dr. Jonathan Hunt", not a baronet. Baronetcies are independent hereditary titles, so far as I know never used as courtesy titles for eldest sons. By the way, baronetcies were invented in the late 17th century, they are not a mediaeval thing at all.

The rule is that the eldest son of a duke, marquis, or earl uses one of his father's lesser titles as a courtesy title, and the other children are (by courtesy) "Lord <firstname> <lastname>" or "Lady <firstname> <lastname>". All the children of viscounts and barons are "the honourable <firstname> <lastname>".

There isn't an actual English word meaning specifically "son of a duke" or "son of a baron", and those sons don't in the English system have titles either.

 

[Turjan]

By the way, baronetcies were invented in the late 17th century, they are not a mediaeval thing at all.

That's a good point. And if it wasn't clear, that was also the point of my post; much too modern, these problems .

 

[Agback]

For the most part I belive that any son of a baron, duke ect irrigardless of wether or not he stood in direct line to inherit was typically called either Lord or Sir. They wouldn't actually inherit a specific title untill pappy kicked it.

In mediaeval times, yes. For example, until Henry III died, the future Edward I was called "Lord Edward", not "prince Edward". In those times there was the king, earls, lords, and knights. All this rococco profusion of dukes, marquesses, viscounts, and baronets is late and post-mediaeval.

Lord Byron was the son of a Baron

If you mean the poet (who was the 6th Baron Byron of Rochdale) no he wasn't. He was the son of Captain John "Mad Jack" Byron, a naval officer. He did not become Lord Byron until the age of ten (1798), when he inherited the title (a barony) upon the death of his great-uncle.

 

[Agback]

There's the king (queen), whose position is not explicitly hereditary…. Dukes are the leaders of the tribal duchies…. A new king may usually be elected from the ranks of the dukes…. The whole country, including all duchies, is divided into counties (shires) that are ruled by earls…. The positions of earls are not necessarily hereditary, either. Their rank is clearly below dukes, but they are more of the "king's men" than the dukes, who might follow their own interests.

The earls of newly colonized land at the borders of the kingdom (= margraves) are special in two ways: they don't have dukes above them, plus they have some kind of standing army for border protection…. I go with a period before the advent of serfdom and petty nobles, when the bulk of the people consisted of free men, who had to follow their earl into war or pay for someone else to go….

Nice model! Strongly reminiscent of the early Carolingian kingdoms.

I find it very refreshing that someone is dodging the Hollywood version of the 18th Century academic version of the late feudal version of the feudal system for once.

 

[D+1]

As it happens I've been polishing up peerage for my City-State of the Invincible Overlord campaign. I've got it working thusly:

The titled nobility ranges from Knight to Baron, Count, Viscount, Earl, Marquess, Duke and Archduke. Male nobles below Knight status may use "Esquire" after their name. Knights, Barons and Counts are addressed in conversation as "Sir/Dame". A Viscount, Earl or Marquess is addressed "Lord/Lady". The ELDEST SON of an Earl, or ANY son of a Marquess or Duke is also entitled to be addressed as "Lord". A Duke or Archduke is addressed as "Grace".

A noble with additional lesser titles is allowed to surrender a title (permenantly) and give it to someone else, traditionally children, but occasionally other family members, and theoretically ANYONE the noble wishes to give it to. The Overlord of course can (and has) stripped people of titles for any reason or none at all.

A Senator is equal in social level to a Duke; a Royal Minister to an Archduke. The primary differences being that Senators and Royal Ministers are not associated with land ownership as other nobles are, and are thus not beholden to the Overlord in the same way.

 

[Agback]

As it happens I've been polishing up peerage for my City-State of the Invincible Overlord campaign. I've got it working thusly:

The titled nobility ranges from Knight to Baron, Count, Viscount, Earl, Marquess, Duke and Archduke.

Well, that's the full Busby Berkeley late-mediaeval profusion in its full development, with reduplication for extra redundancy (ie. you list both 'count' and its English equivalent, 'earl).

One question: why did you decide to put a viscount (vice-count) above a count?

You are of course free to design your campaign how you want, but I would have thought that this inversion would be confusing.

 

[jaerdaph]

So is the son of the Duke of Earl the Earl of Duke?

 

[Turjan]

Well, that's the full Busby Berkeley late-mediaeval profusion in its full development, with reduplication for extra redundancy (ie. you list both 'count' and its English equivalent, 'earl).

One question: why did you decide to put a viscount (vice-count) above a count?

I know where this comes from. "City State of the Invincible Overlord" is a well developed fantasy city, but in the "social level" sector, it's a convoluted mess. They have both, count and earl, with viscount topping a count by far, but this is in turn balanced by the earl topping the duke . Each to his own, I say .

Nice model! Strongly reminiscent of the early Carolingian kingdoms.

I find it very refreshing that someone is dodging the Hollywood version of the 18th Century academic version of the late feudal version of the feudal system for once.

Thanks . It's more or less an idealized snapshot from the 10th century with a few anachronistic elements (the cities). This kind of order makes for interesting conflicts, and there's the possibility of including - again often anachronistic - elements, like the Wars of the Roses, the tribal rivalries in the kingdom of the East Franks (too many to list ), the role of the Dukes of Burgundy in France, or the Hundred Years' War, .

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

I like na-baron and heir apparant, and similar titles, m'self.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

Thanks be to the Universe for some stealworthy material.

Seconded! Great stuff. Consider it stolen.