what do you consider a "good" AC?

[SimonMoon5]

If I'm playing a wizard, why shouldn't I just resign myself to the fact that I am going to be easy to hit, especially at high levels.

Why? Well simply because wizards can have ACs far better than their fighter companions. Mage Armor and Persistent Shield give you a +11, and then you can add your DEX bonus to that. If you take the standard route of polymorphing into a troll (or alternatively a hag), then your AC improves even more: your dex bonus is +2, then +7 natural armor (-1 for size), giving you a 29 AC without magic items, and a 33 when you cast Haste (and even if you don't care about AC, you *will* want to cast Haste). Cat's Grace is a good option, if you don't have magic items, to increase your DEX even more (good for Reflex saves even if you don't care about AC), for another +1 to +3 to AC. When you have a 34 to 36 AC, you might as well resign yourself to the fact that you are going to be difficult to hit. So grab up the magic items and make a high AC your specialty. After all, you can get killed in one or two hits, unlike the fighters, so you need to have some sort of advantage to keep you alive.

In one game where I'm playing a wizard, nobody (not even the fighter (archer)) can hope to hit me without a 20 (usually), unless they're using touch attacks, and even then my touch AC is pretty good. But my wizard is a bit extraordinary, being a smoke genasi 1st level monk/ 5th level wizard/ 9th level incantatrix polymorphed into a marilith and holding both the Shadowstaff *and* a staff of power (gotta love having six size-Large arms).

 

[Pax]

I don't use the Epic book, so maybe there's something in there that changes things radically. However, to date I've still never seen anyone claim an AC of 50 or more that didn't (upon presenting details) have some significant error in their calculation: either in the use of stacking rules, house-ruled new magic items, nonstandard equipment valuation, and/or counting a series of extremely situation-specific modifiers into their claimed AC.

Nonepic character: Human Fighter-10 / Duellist-10; uses rules from FRCS, S&F, DotF.

Format: [bonus type]/[##] ... [source]

(none)/10 ... base AC
armor(shield), enhanced/5 ... Buckler +5 of Speed
haste/4 ... Buckler +5 of Speed
(special)/5 ... dagger +5, Defender (same hand as buckler)
(unnamed)/5 ... "Expertise" feat, maximum benefit of +5AC/-5 to-hit
armor/8 ... Bracers of Armor (+8)
deflection/5 ... Ring of Protection, +5
natural/5 ... Amulet of Natural Armor (+5)
cover/7 ... Potion of Shield
dexterity/9 ... Dexterity, start at 17, add 2 from level increases, 5 from Tome/Manual, and 6 from Gloves of Dexterity (+6); net score is 28
Intelligence/9 ... Intelligence, start at 15, add 3 fromlevel increases, 5 from tome/manual, and 6 from Headband of Intellect (+6); net score of 28, bonus applicable due to Duellist class feature (see S&F).
dodge/10 ... Duellist class ability when fighting defensively; triggered by "Expertise" entry above (see S&F).
dodge/1 ... "Dodge" feat
dodge/2 ... "Twin Sword Style" feat (see FRCS)
dodge/2 ... "Off-Hand Parry" feat (see S&F)

NET ARMOR CLASS, 85, and +2 more during a full attack, if off-hand attacks are forfeited ... +8 more (Greater Mobility Duellist class feature, see S&F) when avoiding AoO's provoked by movement through threatened areas.

In other words, when rolling to hit this character ... if you have to ask, the answer is no.

Here's another nice angle: Touch attacks only void natural (5) and armor (5, 8) armor bonusses, so the Touch AC of the above character is still 69; the AC against Incorporeal creatures loses even less, staying at 77 (Bracers of Armor are a force-effect armor bonus, and so, fully applicable).

And that's without mining for obscure bonusses, using only off-the-shelf items, or items creatable by default (the Potion of Shield, the Dagger +5, Defending). Only one of the items relies on an ability from beyond the PHB/DMG (the Buckler of Speed); while expensive, at a (IIRC) +10 item, it's "only" armor and so costs but 100,000gp-ish of the 760,000gp a 20th level character is built with.

And the PrC is only good for 19 of the armor bonus, in the form of the Intelligence Bonus being added to the Dexterity bonus, and the direct dodge bonus for fighting defensively (both of which are predicated on wearign light or no armor -- a buckler and bracers qualifies, heh).

Now, if I mined for circumstance, sacred, insight, and related bonusses ... heh ... I could break the AC100 mark!

...

Sick, isn't it?

 

[Gunslinger]

I don't use the Epic book, so maybe there's something in there that changes things radically. However, to date I've still never seen anyone claim an AC of 50 or more that didn't (upon presenting details) have some significant error in their calculation: either in the use of stacking rules, house-ruled new magic items, nonstandard equipment valuation, and/or counting a series of extremely situation-specific modifiers into their claimed AC.

The Epic Handbook has epic items to go with epic characters. My monk:

Stats
34
30
30
12(he's not so bright)
38
34

Those may seem ridiculously high, but when you start with decent scores, and buy items that add +12 to them, then by the +5 ability score manuals for each stat(except intel), and add in the 7 ability increases due to level, you come out around that.

Now my AC: 10(base), 15(bracers of armor +15), 12[animated(since I don't touch it, it doesn't impede me) shield +10], 10(dex), 10(amulet of natural armor +10), 14(wis bounus), 5(special monk AC bonus), 10(ring of protection +10), 4(permanencied haste), 1(insight bonus from helm of vision-MotW)=91

There you have it.

 

[bret]

Bracers of Armor don't stack with shield bonus.

Other than that, everything looks good.

 

[Gunslinger]

Bracers of Armor don't stack with shield bonus.

Why not? Their description says they surround you "as is you are wearing armor" which has a separate bonus.

 

[dcollins]

Stats
34, 30, 30, 12, 38, 34

Those may seem ridiculously high, but when you start with decent scores, and buy items that add +12 to them, then by the +5 ability score manuals for each stat(except intel), and add in the 7 ability increases due to level, you come out around that.

Now my AC: 10(base), 15(bracers of armor +15), 12[animated(since I don't touch it, it doesn't impede me) shield +10], 10(dex), 10(amulet of natural armor +10), 14(wis bounus), 5(special monk AC bonus), 10(ring of protection +10), 4(permanencied haste), 1(insight bonus from helm of vision-MotW)=91

Hopefully I don't cause this thread to become completely derailed, but here's what I see immediately:

(1) Back-calculated, the starting ability "decent scores" had to be something like 3x16, 2x13, and 1x12, for a point cost of 44, which is way beyond the upper end of the "high-powered campaign" point cost (32 points), DMG p. 20 -- Reduce all abilities to "standard point buy", about -2 points each, reduces AC by 3 or more places.

(2) As the previous poster noted, bracers of armor don't stack with a shield bonus. (Arguably the "doesn't impede monk abilities because it's animated" is not correct, but it's a nonissue if the bracers are used instead.) -- That's a reduction of 12 points right there.

(3) Haste is not one of the spells listed as an officially allowed target of the permanency spell, per PH p. 234, so that's an example of a house-ruled assistance -- Official rules would reduce AC by 4 places for this.

(4) I'll have to take your word that all those double-potency magic items are available under Epic rules, and that the market costs add up properly. It seems a bit fishy that you can afford every maxed-out ability score improvement, but hey, I guess that's why I continue to avoid the Epic rules.

The issues that I can definitely verify reduce this monks AC by about -19 under the normal rules, for a base AC of 72. That, although high, at least I can believe to be allowed under Epic rules.

 

[dcollins]

Why not? Their description says they surround you "as is you are wearing armor" which has a separate bonus.

PH p. 104, under the "Armor Bonus" heading: "Bonuses from armor and a shield stack. This bonus is an armor bonus, so it does not stack with other effects that increase your armor bonus, such as the mage armor spell or bracers of armor."

This has been confirmed by the Sage in Dragon #284 and the Official D&D FAQ.

For more on protective stacking rules in general, consider perusing this web page: www.superdan.net/dndfaq1.html

 

[Gunslinger]

Hopefully I don't cause this thread to become completely derailed, but here's what I see immediately:

(1) Back-calculated, the starting ability "decent scores" had to be something like 3x16, 2x13, and 1x12, for a point cost of 44, which is way beyond the upper end of the "high-powered campaign" point cost (32 points), DMG p. 20 -- Reduce all abilities to "standard point buy", about -2 points each, reduces AC by 3 or more places.

We rolled for stats, the rules being that you needed 2 16's to qualify. That is higher than standard, but this is for a twink fest.

(2) As the previous poster noted, bracers of armor don't stack with a shield bonus. (Arguably the "doesn't impede monk abilities because it's animated" is not correct, but it's a nonissue if the bracers are used instead.) -- That's a reduction of 12 points right there.

[Edit] Didn't see the post just above this one...

(3) Haste is not one of the spells listed as an officially allowed target of the permanency spell, per PH p. 234, so that's an example of a house-ruled assistance -- Official rules would reduce AC by 4 places for this.

Yes, it is a house rule.

(4) I'll have to take your word that all those double-potency magic items are available under Epic rules, and that the market costs add up properly. It seems a bit fishy that you can afford every maxed-out ability score improvement, but hey, I guess that's why I continue to avoid the Epic rules.

As previously stated, this is a twink fest, so everyone got 25 mil gold(mind you a +20 weapon costs 8 mil alone).

The issues that I can definitely verify reduce this monks AC by about -19 under the normal rules, for a base AC of 72. That, although high, at least I can believe to be allowed under Epic rules.

I guess my AC should be 79 then, under our house rules.

 

[Pax]

Bracers of Armor don't stack with shield bonus.

Other than that, everything looks good.

Okay, swap the Buckler about, a +1 Medium Fortified Buckler of Speed. Roughly same cost, lose 5AC (down to 80, +2 during full attack), gain 50% immunity to criticals (etc).

Attacks,mind, ae heavily penalised by this. IMO, even using Off Hand Parry, if you -als- use a buckler, you take the same attack penalty the buckler states for using it while wieldign two weapons: -1 to hit.

Add to that -2 from TWF/Ambidexterity. Add -5 more from using the "Expertise" feat. That's -8 to hit; presuming Weapon Finesse (Rapier) (fairly signature for a Duellist) ... the Attack Bonus, before magic for the rapier, would be +21/+16/+11/+6.

Mind you, the RAPIER could be a +5 Sure Striking Defending rapier; suck all +5 to AC, and it's still sure striking ... Back up to 85AC (and IMC, where I renamed the AC bonus fromshields to a "shield bonus" and it stacks with mage armor, etc, AC 90 ...).

 

[Pax]

(3) Haste is not one of the spells listed as an officially allowed target of the permanency spell, per PH p. 234, so that's an example of a house-ruled assistance -- Official rules would reduce AC by 4 places for this.

Not strictly true. The spell description for Permanency specifically allows one to expand that list, by researching (as if it were a new spell of the same level) an application of Permanency to any desired, otherwise-legal but not-listed spell. Same PHB, same page 234. Haste would be applicable under that "custom-researched additional legal target" clause.

...

So, it's a DM call as to wether or not it's to be allowed in their campaign, but, it's not a house rule; the option to MAYBE do that very thing, is built directly into the Permanency spell. And in fact, it's a DM's call as to wether or not -anything- is allowed intheir campaign.