What do you do when the rules don't allow something?
- Thread starter Kzach
- Start date
Quickleaf
Legend
Here's what I'd do in your situation...
Make a skill challenge to climb the dragon. Any PC readying an action can cling onto the dragon and fight it in the open air.
Also, don't make the showdown fight in a completely open field, but put terrain like trees the PCs can climb up, hills with little hiding places, a stream PCs could dive into for cover or set up an ambush from, etc. Include some "terrain powers" creative players can unlock or even traps they can set.
Finally, I'd include an objective that the dragon and PCs compete for which requires the dragon to land for while. For example, an underwater tunnel leads to a secret room where the dragon stores its living captives.
Make a skill challenge to climb the dragon. Any PC readying an action can cling onto the dragon and fight it in the open air.
Also, don't make the showdown fight in a completely open field, but put terrain like trees the PCs can climb up, hills with little hiding places, a stream PCs could dive into for cover or set up an ambush from, etc. Include some "terrain powers" creative players can unlock or even traps they can set.
Finally, I'd include an objective that the dragon and PCs compete for which requires the dragon to land for while. For example, an underwater tunnel leads to a secret room where the dragon stores its living captives.
Jack7
First Post
Kzach, this is my opinion. I'm not really sure that you're positing a situation that is disallowed by the rules as much as just an unusual or unique situation in which the rules suggest one possibility and you envision another.
As to the problem of intelligent foes and how they operate. I treat that for monsters as I treat it for men. I've seen some very, very intelligent men make some very stupid errors. It happens that no matter how good you are you can always miscalculate. Whereas I can imagine monsters being very experienced, clever, cunning, even wise and brilliant in some cases, I cannot imagine them being flawless or not making mistakes. If they operated in that way then they would always remain undefeated in all likelihood. So I always personally make allowance for two things. Not to play an intelligent foe like he is a merely a muscular fool, and yet also not to play him like he is God. Every living thing has its limitations and everything will make mistakes eventually. Miscalculate. Become overconfident. Make unfounded assumptions. Overestimate their own capabilities. Under-estimate an enemy.
As to the problem of rules not allowing something in a game. Well, if I really want it to be possible in a game then I just modify the rules. Or create an environment where the normal rules of operation don't apply. It's just a game to me and the point of the game is the adventure not the rule-set. Or, to paraphrase an old and very clever observation, the rules were made for the game, not the game for the rules.
Anywho good luck. I'm sure it will work out fine.
Liquidsabre
Explorer
What's wrong with running "hunting the dragon down and catching it unawares for a fight" as a skill challenge? If the PCs lose the skill challenge the dragon ambushes them and still the fight.
Its more about ego than anything else for a dragon anyways. They've lived for hundreds of years while these milling worms bandy about barely aware of the world and want a fight? Let them have it! Its about attitude anyhow. How DARE these insects hunt for the dragon?! He'll let them have it. If he is losing then he will attempt to flee, wounded it may head back to its lair so that it might recover and lay in sight of all major entrances.
Skill challenege to infiltrate the lair. If successful they catch it off guard, if they lose then the dragon is waiting for them. If you are playing the green dragon as a big time manipulator make sure he has something up his sleave that may very well stop the players in their tracks. Perhaps he bluffs that a family membered is being kidnapped "as we speak" or perhaps it is true. Try to make the encounter memorable. Its possible the players even have to come back to face the dragon again as the rush off to save the kidnapee.
The trick is to *roleplay* the dragon as it is described in the Monster Manual or (however you might have re-skinned them as) as faithfully as you can and leave the rest to the players. Since it is a green dragon, sniping and hit and run attacks simply aren't all that appealing to them. They prefer to pull the strings, to make the PCs dance to their tune by words alone rather than through force. They are likely not as epxerienced in physical fighting as other dragons because of this and may be caught off guard in a lair for example if they over-estimate the control they have over the minions and the PCs. All great stuff for a game!
Cheers!
Its more about ego than anything else for a dragon anyways. They've lived for hundreds of years while these milling worms bandy about barely aware of the world and want a fight? Let them have it! Its about attitude anyhow. How DARE these insects hunt for the dragon?! He'll let them have it. If he is losing then he will attempt to flee, wounded it may head back to its lair so that it might recover and lay in sight of all major entrances.
Skill challenege to infiltrate the lair. If successful they catch it off guard, if they lose then the dragon is waiting for them. If you are playing the green dragon as a big time manipulator make sure he has something up his sleave that may very well stop the players in their tracks. Perhaps he bluffs that a family membered is being kidnapped "as we speak" or perhaps it is true. Try to make the encounter memorable. Its possible the players even have to come back to face the dragon again as the rush off to save the kidnapee.
The trick is to *roleplay* the dragon as it is described in the Monster Manual or (however you might have re-skinned them as) as faithfully as you can and leave the rest to the players. Since it is a green dragon, sniping and hit and run attacks simply aren't all that appealing to them. They prefer to pull the strings, to make the PCs dance to their tune by words alone rather than through force. They are likely not as epxerienced in physical fighting as other dragons because of this and may be caught off guard in a lair for example if they over-estimate the control they have over the minions and the PCs. All great stuff for a game!
Cheers!
gribble
Explorer
I was going to suggest something similar, except to run the "start" of the fight as a skill challenge. Something like:
Set Up: The dragon is circling above, making periodic strafing runs with it's breath weapon. You need to avoid its attacks and lure it to the ground to fight it.
Primary Skills: Bluff and Intimidate (to trick or enrage the dragon to land and fight in close quarters), Acrobatics and Athletics (avoiding the strafing runs), Perception (finding suitable shelter from the breath weapon)
Secondary Skills: Insight (figuring out how to entice the dragon to land - provides +2 on next Bluff or Intimidate check), History (remembering the details of the last hero/party that fought the dragon), Nature (helps with finding suitable terrain features to hide in - provides +2 on next Perception check)
Complexity: 1 (4 successes before 3 failures), so each challenge is short, but make the DCs high for the PCs level (so they are likely to fail a couple before succeeding).
Success: The PCs manage to lure the dragon to the ground and normal battlemat combat begins.
Failure: The PCs each lose a healing surge (maybe two - you want this to be the big climax after all) from being caught by the dragons attacks, and the skill challenge begins again (unless the PCs choose to retreat)
That's just off the top of my head. You could probably play around with the skills a bit and maybe find some that are more or less suitable.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
The dragon is smart. The dragon is manipulative.
It seems to me that the only time the dragon is likely to directly fight the PCs is if it is forced to for some reason. Ordinarily it will just fly away.
So step 1 is, IMO:
the fight never happens unless the PCs have a plan in the first place
If the PCs just ask around town "where's the dragon", then front up to it's lair and knock on the front door, the dragon has left. Either word got back to it that people were looking for it, or it has some mechanism for detecting approaching foes.
Naturally it's not going to leave it's treasure behind. It might, however, leave a powerful minion and a mocking note. Or some cursed loot. Or a booby trap. Or some sort of misleading evidence, pointing the adventurers towards one of it's foes.
The only way the PCs will face the dragon is if they outwit it. And that suggests that they have a plan that's a bit more robust than "lets hope we can kill a dragon in open terrain".
It seems to me that the only time the dragon is likely to directly fight the PCs is if it is forced to for some reason. Ordinarily it will just fly away.
So step 1 is, IMO:
the fight never happens unless the PCs have a plan in the first place
If the PCs just ask around town "where's the dragon", then front up to it's lair and knock on the front door, the dragon has left. Either word got back to it that people were looking for it, or it has some mechanism for detecting approaching foes.
Naturally it's not going to leave it's treasure behind. It might, however, leave a powerful minion and a mocking note. Or some cursed loot. Or a booby trap. Or some sort of misleading evidence, pointing the adventurers towards one of it's foes.
The only way the PCs will face the dragon is if they outwit it. And that suggests that they have a plan that's a bit more robust than "lets hope we can kill a dragon in open terrain".
The simulationist in me cries out that an intelligent, powerful foe (especially a mastermind type of enemy) would take care to minimize their weaknesses and maximize their advantages. From a purely "common sense" point of view, I can't see a reason why a flying critter with a breath weapon would limit its mobility to the rough equivalent to its foes.
The entertainer in me also realizes that your job is to fundamentally entertain your players. If you think that they'd be entertained by a ferocious melee, you've just got to figure out a reason why to make it plausible (if such things matter to you and your group). I'd suggest that you view this as an opportunity to develop story or add layers onto your plot.
Here's a few ideas. Feel free to use and abuse as you see fit.
• The forest is within the hunting grounds of a tribe of elves. They would love to see the dragon defeated, but they simply don't have the melee beaters to directly engage it--they specialize in hit-and-run tactics themselves. Their hunters have devised a harpoon designed to tear away large sections of wing from such creatures. They will gladly provide the characters with these harpoons, which can be used in the first round to tear off the dragon's wings.
• The characters can convince the local lord to re-take a border tower and fortify it, using it as a base to attack the dragon from. This is a ruse, of course. What the characters are really up to is luring the dragon inside the tower, where its flight is useless once they slam the portcullis closed.
• You can have the characters visit a shaman/druid/witch/whatever, an isolated mystic that dwells within the forest. The mystic feels threatened by the dragon, having perhaps battled it in the past or working against its machinations. Perhaps after performing a service for this mystic (another adventure!), the mystic enacts a powerful ritual to rouse the spirits of the storm and the eternal winds. When the characters battle the dragon, these spirits slam the dragon back to the ground if it tries to fly.
The entertainer in me also realizes that your job is to fundamentally entertain your players. If you think that they'd be entertained by a ferocious melee, you've just got to figure out a reason why to make it plausible (if such things matter to you and your group). I'd suggest that you view this as an opportunity to develop story or add layers onto your plot.
Here's a few ideas. Feel free to use and abuse as you see fit.
• The forest is within the hunting grounds of a tribe of elves. They would love to see the dragon defeated, but they simply don't have the melee beaters to directly engage it--they specialize in hit-and-run tactics themselves. Their hunters have devised a harpoon designed to tear away large sections of wing from such creatures. They will gladly provide the characters with these harpoons, which can be used in the first round to tear off the dragon's wings.
• The characters can convince the local lord to re-take a border tower and fortify it, using it as a base to attack the dragon from. This is a ruse, of course. What the characters are really up to is luring the dragon inside the tower, where its flight is useless once they slam the portcullis closed.
• You can have the characters visit a shaman/druid/witch/whatever, an isolated mystic that dwells within the forest. The mystic feels threatened by the dragon, having perhaps battled it in the past or working against its machinations. Perhaps after performing a service for this mystic (another adventure!), the mystic enacts a powerful ritual to rouse the spirits of the storm and the eternal winds. When the characters battle the dragon, these spirits slam the dragon back to the ground if it tries to fly.
Hussar
Legend
Another option might be rituals.
Have the dragon go out and beat on the PC's first. Strafing runs and chew on them without killing them. The dragon loses interest after taking a bit of damage and leaves. Pretty strong hint that the players need something to even the odds.
Knowledge skill or whatever to let them think of finding that old dragon hunter that happens to live somewhat nearby. Perhaps a ranger patches them up and lets them know. Whatever.
The ritual scroll lets you create an area where things can't fly. A giant "grounding" area, say 100 feet across that is activated by a key word. The party then has to lure the dragon to that spot that's been prepared, then trigger the trap.
Hijinks ensue.
Have the dragon go out and beat on the PC's first. Strafing runs and chew on them without killing them. The dragon loses interest after taking a bit of damage and leaves. Pretty strong hint that the players need something to even the odds.
Knowledge skill or whatever to let them think of finding that old dragon hunter that happens to live somewhat nearby. Perhaps a ranger patches them up and lets them know. Whatever.
The ritual scroll lets you create an area where things can't fly. A giant "grounding" area, say 100 feet across that is activated by a key word. The party then has to lure the dragon to that spot that's been prepared, then trigger the trap.
Hijinks ensue.
Thats a problem for your players, not for you.
Play the dragon as it would act and let the players figure out how to deal with it.
Generally, reserve the smart monsters for players who are willing to play smart. If they are not, stick to monsters which willingly come to the PCs to be hacked apart like undead and demons.
Play the dragon as it would act and let the players figure out how to deal with it.
Generally, reserve the smart monsters for players who are willing to play smart. If they are not, stick to monsters which willingly come to the PCs to be hacked apart like undead and demons.
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