What do you not like about M&M?

[Dragonblade]

So I always see threads about how great M&M is (and it is cool ), but what don't you like about it? What would you change were you in Steve Kenson's shoes and got the chance to do a 2nd Edition for the game?

There are a few things that always bugged me. Things that I felt HERO did better, but without biasing everyone, what don't you like about the game? What have you changed?

 

[swrushing]

I dislike the way flaws and weaknesses are done. Points upfront for these (loan shark method) simply creates more headaches than it solves.

I much prefer having flaws/weaknesses pay as you go, giving bonus XP after they create a noticeable problem in play. this way, you use hindsight to see what they did and not foresight to guess what they might do. This way they can be as severe and frequent or as minimal and infrequent as you wan't since their payback will be determined by these things as they occur. This way put both player and Gm on the same page as both see "the flaw occurs in play" as the good side, the thing that earns the bonus xp, as opposed to the player after he banks the initial loan never wanting to see his flaw come to collect and the GM put in the role of collector. Finally, the Gm does not need to worry about "working the flaw in, but not too often" because he gave the character so many points up front. However often it plays, it pays. The system works for your game, as opposed to you working your game over for the system.

I doubt MnM will move in this direction, since they just overhauled flaws in the annual to go even further along the loan shark method, but it would be nice.

So I always see threads about how great M&M is (and it is cool ), but what don't you like about it? What would you change were you in Steve Kenson's shoes and got the chance to do a 2nd Edition for the game?

There are a few things that always bugged me. Things that I felt HERO did better, but without biasing everyone, what don't you like about the game? What have you changed?

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

It has glaring balance issues that don't glare until you've played the game two or three times.

It's impossible to EXPLAIN to players: Not how to play, that's easy. How to PLAY. How to balance characters, why there needs to be balance, how they can build their character.

And, as with any system like this: It's impossible to make a character without several hours or a spreadsheet. Simpsons sheet is a life-saver in that regard. I can make a character by hand RELATIVELY easily, but if you handed me the M&M book, a character sheet, and a pencil I'd be disgruntled.

What would I change? I'd put some more talk in there about balancing characters against one another. I can build a beast and a weakling with the same number of points, and in play, that can be distressing. It was issues like that which turned my group off of the game for several months. We played a test game with the characters at the front of the book and an adventure I picked up at the M&M website. Eventually, however, I brought them back to the system after I'd gotten a better handle on it, I built all of the PCs myself, and we tried again. Some of the best gaming we've ever had.

Several months of Teen Titans. TIP: You can pick up 1.5" plastic minis of the Teen Titans cartoon characters in your local toy section. A hot glue gun, some 1" black buttons, and ten minutes later? Perfect minis. I've even used Cinderblock in my D&D games as a nice medium elemental.

--fje

 

[GlassJaw]

I haven't played MnM yet but I've read all the rulebooks.

Good call on the balance issue Heap. I've made up some characters for fun and compared them to the ones in the book and was pretty surprised at how different PL10 characters can be. Some of the powers and combos are just more powerful than others. While I don't have a huge problem with that, the more "casual" gamer could be lost in the dust if the hero they create can't cut it in-game.

From just reading the books, it also seems to me that the powerhouse/tank-type hero is very difficult to damage with physical damage. If you have two Super Strength/Protection supers, it basically comes down the roll of the dice. Now while this may be true for two 10th-level fighters as well, they will have a greater variety of abilities between them. The powerhouses in MnM will look extremely similar. Again, this may not be the case in actual play, it's just the feeling I've gotten from reaing the books.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Yes. The major issue in my first game, for instance, came in that the player with Minotaur (the powerhouse) couldn't be injured and could smack down anything. The adventure I ran just happened not to have too much to hit HIM with, while there was plenty to smack down some of the other PCs. So they got a little disgruntled with that.

There's stuff to hit those powerhouses with, though. Will saves come to mind. Ref saves. Things that don't cause damage but instead cause incapacitation. I had fun with some mooks shooting goo-blasters at Cyborg in my Teen Titans game, sticking him to the floor. It's things like that which make the game fun, but aren't terribly obvious from the start.

--fje

 

[Capellan]

From just reading the books, it also seems to me that the powerhouse/tank-type hero is very difficult to damage with physical damage.

My in-game experience is quite the opposite, actually.

There are enough ways around Protection (surprise strike, power attack, penetrating attack, hero points) that you can relatively easily hurt brick characters*.

To respond to the topic, I'd agree that the biggest issue - though I don't consider it a problem with the rules, per se - with M&M is making sure that the characters are relatively balanced. As others have noted, there can be a wide difference in capability of characters with the same PL.

Of course, this is true of any point-based system. HERO experiences the same thing (though HERO does give more guidelines about how characters should be balanced, in terms of active points for powers and the like).




*EDIT: and I say this as the brickiest-of-brick PCs in PirateCat's Code-4 mini-campaign

 

[Vigilance]

The Protection power and disadvantages.

The way protection works makes the penetrating attack feat a must for any character built around an energy blast.

Example: Two Bricks with Protection and Super Strength matched square off. This is a pretty equal fight, although it has the potential to last forever.

However a Brick with Protection maxed will always be invunerable against a Blaster of his PL unless that Blaster has Penetrating Attack.

If I am wrong about this, please point it out, as I am somewhat a noob with M&M (though I'm pretty good at grokking game systems).

And I *DO* see this as a problem with the game, not just a problem with a point-based system.

It doesnt mean the game isn't great. The FASERIP Marvel had this problem, and Id rate it as one of the best games I ever ran. But it is a problem.

Disads is the usual. However I dont see this as a big problem because I limit PCs to one Disad.

Chuck

 

[Capellan]

However a Brick with Protection maxed will always be invunerable against a Blaster of his PL unless that Blaster has Penetrating Attack.

Incorrect. You're forgetting critical hits (+5 dmg, and comparatively common in MnM as they don't need to be confirmed), surprise strike (+1 per 2PL against foes who lose their Dex), Power Attack (which can be applied to any MnM attack - not just melee attacks - and has no Strength minimum) and Hero Points (which let you buy temporary extra and stunts for precisely this kind of emergency).

Penetrating Attack can be nerfed by the Impenetrable extra, remember, so there has to be an alternative to it.

(Also, vis Brick on Brick action -- MnM's damage save makes these fights go pretty fast. A PL 10 Brick can do +20 (or more) damage on an attack, while the best defence you can get at that PL is Protection 10 and Dmg Save +7 ... that means you bump the DC down from 35 to 25, then have to try and beat that with d20+7. Roll 17 or less and you take a hit, roll 12 or less and you're stunned ... roll 7 or less (35% chance) and you're KO'd).

EDIT: don't read this spoiler if you don't want to know about future events in PirateCat's Code-4 Story Hour.

Spoiler

I play Boulder. He's got Protection 10 and Super-Strength 10, Base STR 20, CON 20, Toughness and Power Attack feats.

In two sessions, I've one-shotted a PL11 brick, and two other brick-like characters of ~PL10-14. I've been hit five times in those fights: one save I made (just), two saves I took a hit (one of those only after Hero Pointing it), and two saves I was stunned.

Bricks are nowhere near as unstoppable as they look on paper

 

[Kenson]

However a Brick with Protection maxed will always be invunerable against a Blaster of his PL unless that Blaster has Penetrating Attack.

If I am wrong about this, please point it out, as I am somewhat a noob with M&M

Okay, you're wrong.

"A Brick with Protection maxed" has Protection at rank X, where X = power level.

"A Blaster of his PL" presumably means an opponent who has Energy Blast at rank X (again where X = power level).

The description of the Protection power (M&M, p. 79) says: "Subtract your Protection rank from the damage bonus of any attack that affects you before making a Damage saving throw. If the attack's damage bonus is reduced below +0 (emphasis mine), you automatically make your Damage save and are unaffected..."

X - X = 0, not less than 0. Thus a character with Protection X is in no way invulnerable against an opponent with an attack doing X damage.

Now, admittedly, a PL X character with a maxed out Con bonus and the Toughness feat has a massive Damage save (X+7 effectively) but even then the DC of an equal attack is (X+15), so there's still a pretty decent margin for failure there.

Now, if you said "a Brick with maxed out Protection is invulnerable against a blaster of less than his power level" that would be more accurate, although it still doesn't take into account critical hits, Power Attacks, etc. as Capellan points out.

I now return to lurk-mode and scribbling notes...

 

[Von Ether]

For causal players, MnM is great. It's a fast, quick system that can design fairly powerful supers quickly for us. It's got some powers that need to have some "red flags" put on them though, for the sake of warning GMs when power games take them. The offenders are Gadget and the front loaded powers like Incorpreal.