What Do You Think Of As "Modern TTRPG Mechanics"?

[Thomas Shey]

Like I said, totally understand that point of view. I would feel the same if I was in a fantasy game that operated that way. Not sure why I can handle it in supers games and stuff like Star Trek Adventures. Must be because I love the source material for those games so much.

That's the point. There was no functional way for them to play in those games, because the setting wouldn't work right without those invisible-to-people conventions, and the way they played their characters wouldn't work right with them. The threads just wouldn't meet in the middle.

 

[Neonchameleon]

That's the point. There was no functional way for them to play in those games, because the setting wouldn't work right without those invisible-to-people conventions, and the way they played their characters wouldn't work right with them. The threads just wouldn't meet in the middle.

And this leads to why this sort of conversation makes me want to tear my hair out. When I think of mechanics in tabletop RPGs that try to enforce genre my first three thoughts are:

• Hit points with basically no actual meaningful injuries or shock penalties
• Levels
• A heavily structured class system

And yet people on ENWorld, a D&D forum, claim to not want genre enforcing mechanics.

 

[Fenris-77]

And this leads to why this sort of conversation makes me want to tear my hair out. When I think of mechanics in tabletop RPGs that try to enforce genre my first three thoughts are:

• Hit points with basically no actual meaningful injuries or shock penalties
• Levels
• A heavily structured class system

And yet people on ENWorld, a D&D forum, claim to not want genre enforcing mechanics.

So what 'genre' are we talking about here? I think those mechanics certainly scaffold a particular playstyle, but I'm not convinced that's the same thing as a 'genre' in the way that people don't want 'genre enforcing mechanics' are using the term.

I also think there's a lot of confusing overlap between how people use the word genre and the word narrative to describe aspects of RPG design. So there's that.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So what 'genre' are we talking about here? I think those mechanics certainly scaffold a particular playstyle, but I'm not convinced that's the same thing as a 'genre' in the way that people don't want 'genre enforcing mechanics' are using the term.

D&D-derived heroic fantasy. It's its own genre and covers a whole lot of video games, but not a whole lot of classic fantasy like LotR.

I also think there's a lot of confusing overlap between how people use the word genre and the word narrative to describe aspects of RPG design. So there's that.

There is. And most people who don't play narrative RPGs tend to pick things that aren't in them all - or are in very trad RPGs like GURPS.

 

[Fenris-77]

D&D-derived heroic fantasy. It's its own genre and covers a whole lot of video games, but not a whole lot of classic fantasy like LotR.

If that fantasy is derived from D&D then calling out the mechanics of D&D as genre mechanics based on those books seems, um, a little odd. Backward even. The books (purposefully) reflect the mechanics and play of the game, not the other way around. The D&D game isn't written to reflect the genre elements in D&D-inspired novels.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but this seem very different from cases where a mechanic is designed to reflect a non-game-inspired genre trope, like the flashback mechanic in Blades in the Dark, for example.

Perhaps there's an element of your thinking here that I'm just missing...

 

[SableWyvern]

If that fantasy is derived from D&D then calling out the mechanics of D&D as genre mechanics based on those books seems, um, a little odd. Backward even.

Recursive is the word I'd use.

 

[Neonchameleon]

If that fantasy is derived from D&D then calling out the mechanics of D&D as genre mechanics based on those books seems, um, a little odd. Backward even. The books (purposefully) reflect the mechanics and play of the game, not the other way around. The D&D game isn't written to reflect the genre elements in D&D-inspired novels.

No. The D&D game was written using bits and pieces of tabletop wargaming and started life as a hacked tabletop wargame. In a tabletop wargame the game is granular enough that hit points made sense, and where classes and levels are a sensible way of breaking things down because you're zoomed out.

And then in a feedback loop it became its own genre. Recursion is (as @SableWyvern says) and excellent word. The intent might not have been genre emulation but the genre is very much there and attempts to claim it isn't a genre remind me of nothing more than speakers who claim they don't have an accent.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but this seem very different from cases where a mechanic is designed to reflect a non-game-inspired genre trope, like the flashback mechanic in Blades in the Dark, for example.

Perhaps there's an element of your thinking here that I'm just missing...

OD&D and 1e wasn't intended to mirror a genre before 1985 - it was just written by people utterly immersed in mechanical genre tropes from tabletop wargames among other things. From 2e onwards there was always an explicit intent by the writers to be D&D (with 2e deliberately not making obvious changes like ascending AC to keep it backwards compatible) - meaning that by that point it had become a defined genre (although one that has shifted over time). And all the WotC editions have been deliberate rewrites that tried with differing degrees of success to keep the genre tropes from previous D&Ds.

 

[SableWyvern]

No. The D&D game was written using bits and pieces of tabletop wargaming and started life as a hacked tabletop wargame. In a tabletop wargame the game is granular enough that hit points made sense, and where classes and levels are a sensible way of breaking things down because you're zoomed out.

And then in a feedback loop it became its own genre. Recursion is (as @SableWyvern says) and excellent word. The intent might not have been genre emulation but the genre is very much there and attempts to claim it isn't a genre remind me of nothing more than speakers who claim they don't have an accent.

OD&D and 1e wasn't intended to mirror a genre before 1985 - it was just written by people utterly immersed in mechanical genre tropes from tabletop wargames among other things. From 2e onwards there was always an explicit intent by the writers to be D&D (with 2e deliberately not making obvious changes like ascending AC to keep it backwards compatible) - meaning that by that point it had become a defined genre (although one that has shifted over time). And all the WotC editions have been deliberate rewrites that tried with differing degrees of success to keep the genre tropes from previous D&Ds.

For the record, I agree with the sentiment behind @Fenris-77's comment, even if I'd use a different term.

 

[Parmandur]

The D&D game isn't written to reflect the genre elements in D&D-inspired novels.

coughs

Oh, look at this Appendix in the DMG, showing the fiction that inspired the design of D&D...

 

[Fenris-77]

I never said there wasn't a genre of heroic D&D-inspired fantasy, I said that it seems problematic to identify the mechanics of D&D as genre-inspired when those mechanics (in part) spawned the genre in the first place. Even with the idea of 'recursive' in play I think you'd to actually identify an example of how the genre fed back into the game in order for this idea to carry any water. It's certainly not obviously the case that any specific D&D mechanics are a direct result of recursive movement from the genre you identify back into the game. Of course, there might be some, but I think the burden of proof lies with the person who's making the claim. It's certainly possible, but it's not obvious.

Talking about how the mechanics of D&D may have been inspired by other heroic fantasy is perfectly legitimate in a hunt for 'genre mechanics', but it's a very different beast than the first example. Speaking of which...

coughs

Oh, look at this Appendix in the DMG, showing the fiction that inspired the design of D&D...

Oh look, that's not even remotely what we're specifically talking about. The topic at hand is D&D-inspired heroic fantasy, not heroic fantasy in general.

Something that is obvious is the mechanics of D&D were at least in some part designed to reflect heroic fantasy literature. No one is arguing about that. That discussion is going to get bogged down in the nitty gritty of which mechanics are 'wargame inspired' or 'genre inspired, although that doesn't take away from the general claim.